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Why Black American Chicks Like Thugs

Tupac

Reminder: Don’t forget about the commenter contest.

I have to warn you, this is either going to be one of my weirdest posts, one of my most profound or both. Even if it sounds really pseudoscientific and downright preposterous at times, I encourage you to read through it and keep an open mind.

One thing I constantly hear educated black guys complain about is their experiences with black women, particularly how they constantly test them or pass them up for guys of a thuggier nature. The big complaint I hear is that black women, even those of middle class status and higher, seem to want “Tupac with a degree.” Black guys often use this as their reason for primarily dating women of other races.

The Game

Now of course most women of all races go through a “bad boy” stage, especially when they’re younger and attraction and excitement are more important to them than long-term security. One of the problems with black women though is that they tend to go overboard in this department. A bad boy to an Asian girl may be a guy who’s a liberal arts major. When black women go for a bad boys, however, a prison record and a gun are often be involved. I even found this to be the case when I was in college and hollering at educated black women. With white girls, though, the simple fact that a guy is black is often enough to confer “bad boy” status and make a guy edgy. So when a guy is faced with a choice of going for white girl and being edgy and a “bad boy” simply by being black and having a little bit of street smarts, or going for a black chick and having to be a “soldier” and risk a criminal record to impress a black chick with his edginess, it makes sense that a lot of black guys find it less stressful to date outside the race.

But I’m not writing this to excuse black men’s dating choices or condem black women, but rather to understand why this “thug lust” phenomenon is so prevalent in the black community. After doing a lot of reading on evolutionary psychology, I think I may have an answer.

One of the tenets of evolutionary psychology is that women are programmed to test men for strength and leadership. Constantly. The theory is that in prehistoric times, the world was a much more dangerous place, especially for women, who could easily be raped or killed at will. Weapons were primitive, there weren’t laws to protect rights and society was not very civilized. Women needed men that were strong and dominant to offer them protection from other men who may try to invade. For this reason, it was in a woman’s best interest to test a potential mate. If he was too weak to stand up to her and let her walk all over him, then how could he protect her and their children from other men? If he was wishy-washy in day to day activities, how could he make important decisions in a time of crisis?

Chances are, at some point in history there were not only plenty of women who were genetically predisposed to test men, but also plenty of women who were not genetically predisposed to test men. Thanks to the principles of survival of the fittest, however, the women who didn’t have the innate tendency to test their men probably chose weaker men and wound up getting their genes weeded out of existence once trouble came around and these weak men couldn’t protect them. On the flipside, the women with an innate tendency to test their men and not mate with punks were better suited for survival and ended up passing their genes to future generations of women. Thus as the human race evolved over time, women with “man-testing” genes thrived in the human population because they were beneficial to survival, while women without “man-testing” genes gradually ceased to exist because they were wiped out over time. For this reason, any woman alive today is descended from women with “man testing” genes and has these “man testing” genes too. This is why modern women constantly probe men in a million subtle ways for weakness and lack of leadership during the courtship process.

The irony is that civilization has evolved to a point where a man’s physical protection is not as necessary as it once was. Society is much more civilized, women have access to better weapons to level the playing field, policemen exist to add more protection, there are laws to protect female citizens and conquest of women and other men through brute force is not only frowned upon but actually illegal. So logically, man testing is not as necessary as it once was. However logic can’t change a woman’s genes or hundreds of thousands of years of cultural conditioning, both of which have bred her to test potential mates for leadership and strength. It is for this reason so many women are attracted to assholes. They may not be nice, but they will not stand for disrespect and will fight for their rights against other men. I also think this primal urge for men who don’t take shit plays a big role in why so many death row inmates have those women who write them love letters and are attracted to them: these men take no crap, are leaders in a bizarre way due to the fact that they refuse to conform to society’s rules and can offer a woman protection from outsiders in a way that the average, law-abiding man can’t. Even though logically a woman may know these assholes or thugs are a bad choice, biologically and culturally they’ve been bred through hundreds of thousands of years of evolution to respond positively to dominant, alpha male traits on a primal, unthinking level.

Now over the past few centuries as the West has become more civilized and women have made great strides in gaining equality, Western culture has begun training women to tone down their man-testing ways. Even though the man-testing genes are still there, they seem to play less of a role in mate choice with each generation. This is why that ugly kid from Superbad and Juno can actually be a sex symbol to tweens today. Alpha traits still matter to women on a primal level, but given how safe modern Western society has become for women over the past two centuries, and how much safer society continues to become for them, it’s safe to say that testing a man for alpha status will continue to decline and become more subtle and it will be increasingly easier for beta males to thrive in the mating game.

So what does this have to do with black women and thugs? The black woman for a long time was denied the societal progress available to other Western women over the past two centuries. Unlike other women in the West, for a long time black women did not experience the same increase in status and societal protection that would allow them to feel less dependent on the protections of a mate. Europeans invaded West Africa and took black people as slaves. Once in America, the black slave woman could be violated at will by her master and his visiting friends. This was acceptable under law. Her black husband could do nothing about this, which had to be very emasculating for him. In addition, she probably gradually began to resent him for his inability to protect her, even if logically she knew there was nothing he could actually do. This dynamic likely was passed to her daughters too, who had to grow up seeing both their fathers and their mates routinely emasculated and rendered incapable of protecting them. After slavery ended, things didn’t get that much better. The Ku Klux Klan was around in the south, lynchings and other forms of racial violence were rampant, black families could be physically intimidated and wiped out at will and the black man’s emasculation continued.

Given all the hardships a black woman faced up until very recent history, it would make sense that her need to test a man would remain strong, even as this need subsided some in Western women of other races. If anything, man-testing genes may have increased over the last several hundred years in the black community due to the hardships they faced. Getting an strong alpha male probably became much more important to a black woman than to a white woman, since unlike the white woman she did not have the same alternative protections of law, status and police available to her. I imagine that black women needed man-testing genes more than any other race of women because they were more reliant on the protection of a strong man than any other race of women because they couldn’t rely on societal protections. And out of all the strong types of black men available, I figure a thug was probably the type of alpha male that made her feel the safest. A thug was probably the type of black man most likely to stand up to the white man or other dangerous blacks even at the cost of his own life. I imagine that over the course of history, evolution and cultural conditioning rewarded man-testing genes in black women much more than it did in other races of women because strong, tough men were much more vital to a black woman’s survival. I also think that history and evolution were probably more unkind to black women who didn’t test their men for strength than it was to white women who didn’t test their men.

The second most popular type of man in the West is the beta provider. He’s not as dominant, as strong a leader or as tough as the alpha male, because he’s a beta male. But thanks to his intellectual prowess and his ability to provide financial support, he becomes the next best thing to the alpha dog. He offers a different type of security. It may not be as primally attractive to a woman as a tough, dominant alpha male, but it is a very safe and secure (if somewhat boring) secondary choice. Examples of beta male providers can be your wimpy scientists, male lawyers, educated, civilized guys, sucessful metrosexuals, nerds with poor social skills but good incomes, etc. They may not have as much to offer in primal attraction and physical protection, but they make up for it in their ability to provide security in the form of financial assistance. The catch is, a beta provider can only compete with alpha males in extremely civilized cultures were society offers women a sense of physical protection through the existence of cultural norms and legal protections. This allows things like financial security and education to become as important as alpha dog status. That is why being a beta provider can be so attractive to Western women, since society allows them the luxury of choosing a man for reasons other than brutish alpha dog status. If society ever reverted back to the dangerously harsh, brutish free-for-all it used to be in the old days, the stock of beta providers would drop drastically.

Since black women didn’t have the same societal protections as white Western women, beta providers were probably a bad choice in the black community for a long time, even as the stock of beta providers was on the rise in the white community. How much good could a square, law-abiding doctor or lawyer be to a black woman in the heart of the rural, racist south? His money doesn’t have that much benefit since many white businesses wouldn’t take it and he couldn’t move to any neighborhood he wanted, even if he could afford to. If anything, his education and intellect and legitimate financial success could be interpreted as being “uppity” and not “knowing his role,” thereby making him a target and putting the family in more danger from racist whites. For all these reasons, I think that black American women have evolved to have even more man-testing genes than other women, especially in favor of men who disregard the white man and his laws. In the black community, the tables have traditionally been stacked against the beta provider black male. Money in the hands of a black man just didn’t offer that much protection and wasn’t as valuable as being tough and macho and strong.

And it only got worse once the welfare state came into effect in the 1960s. Once Lyndon Johnson introduced the Great Society, allowing single women with children to get money and housing from the federal government, this took away one of the black beta provider’s last bargaining chips: his money and house. Now a black woman could get that financial security from the government. Not just that, but if she did get together with a beta provider, she’d actually lose her free money, food, house and education because you had to be single to receive those benefits. The welfare system actually created an incentive against settling down with a beta provider. He can’t provide the primal attraction and physical protection an alpha male does, and now his presence is actually an economic liability. And since a man was no longer as needed for economic reasons, this helped raised the stock of thugs: the physical protection from racist whites and other blacks in the ghetto, the superior sexual prowess, the primal attraction that comes from his role as a “bad boy” alpha male and the tax-free, under the table financial benefits of his illegal money.

Even though society has changed greatly for black women in the past few decades and they no longer face the same level of racism or need for an alpha dog thug for survival, they still have generations of these thug-loving genes and cultural conditioning to fight against. And of course the glamorization of thug life through hip-hop probably doesn’t help things either. And this is why even as many black women move up socially and get more educated, they still have such a strong pull toward thugs.

Holla!

Thug life

94 Responses to “Why Black American Chicks Like Thugs”


  1. So that’s where all the white women went.

    Sornie’s last blog post..Is the Star Tribune going for broke?


  2. The theory is that in prehistoric times, the world was a much more dangerous place, especially for women, who could easily be raped or killed at will. Weapons were primitive, there weren?t laws to protect rights and society was not very civilized. Women needed men that were strong and dominant to offer them protection from other men who may try to invade.

    There is some evidence to suggest that women were not often raped by their own tribesmen, but rather by invaders and taken as prizes in conquest. In recent history rape on a massive scale is associated with war and ethnic cleansing. Most civilizations, large and small, set up provisions to protect women and punish rapists. Society was set up on a smaller scale but still protected the women within; otherwise such societies would not have survived for long. Heinlein’s words:

    All societies are based on rules to protect pregnant women and young children. All else is surplusage, excrescence, adornment, luxury, or folly, which can ? and must ? be dumped in emergency to preserve this prime function. As racial survival is the only universal morality, no other basic is possible. Attempts to formulate a “perfect society” on any foundation other than “Women and children first!” is not only witless, it is automatically genocidal. Nevertheless, starry-eyed idealists (all of them male) have tried endlessly ? and no doubt will keep on trying.

    Now of course most women of all races go through a ?bad boy? stage, especially when they?re younger and attraction and excitement are more important to them than long-term security.

    Yes, I went through it when I was 15 and fell in love for the first time. I was very attracted to a man who openly declared that he once put a guy in the hospital for beating up a girl that he knew, as this simultaneously showed that he was strong vs. men and a protector of women. He was ex-military and knew how to handle guns, had been shot at, and had been in many street fights. He was still somewhat in his “bad boy” stage, but it was a lot lessened by the time I met him. Those instincts don’t really die though.

    But thanks to his intellectual prowess and his ability to provide financial support, he becomes the next best thing to the alpha dog. He offers a different type of security.

    Having security and stability is part of growing up. No “alpha” who is a grown man should constantly have the teenage/early adulthood mindset of the “thug.” Too bad this modern society tends to glorify being stuck in perpetual adolescence. My husband’s father settled down to provide for him when he was born after the man had traveled the world as a marine.

    I find the dichotomy of a good provider, protector and gentleman all in one very appealing. A man who can be violent when the need arises, who is intelligent enough to avoid violence when the situation calls for it, who knows what to do to protect his family, but who can also be stable and mature… that is a real prize.


  3. This was a really long post and I am still making my way though it, but, are you familiar with Steve Sailer. He has some insightful posts on the different races and Muscularity and Masculinity. Basically, that women of a certian Muscularity and Masculinity (all women are at least somewhat Masculine on the Masculine-Feminine spectrum) prefer men who are at least a little bit more Muscular and Masculine.

    So, you might see Asian women go for either Asian Men or White Men.
    And White Women going for White Men and Black Men.
    And Black Women going for Black Men and, well, Black Men of West African descent seem to have the greatest Muscularity of the different races.

    Anyway, interesting stuff.


  4. Wrong choice of word dichotomy above… should be combination.


  5. Sornie – “Where the white women at?” Favorite movie quote ever.

    Hope – Yeah, I was talking about invading outsiders from other tribes. It may not have been rape in the purest sense of the word, but it was sort of coerced. If an invader kidnaps you and makes you his wife, you don’t really have much choice about whether or not you’re going to have sex with him.

    Ian – Yeah, this post was long but I figured since I took more than a week off why not go to town on this one. I like reading Steve Sailer’s stuff, he has a really sharp thought process. I need to read more of his stuff though. His pieces bashing Malcolm Gladwell for sloppy thinking are awesome, even though I’m a Gladwell fan.


  6. Also, T, you really focused on the experiences of American Blacks. Yet, it seems like the same tendencies appear in Blacks in the UK, yet their history is drastically different.

    Again, I think the same thing could be said for people of West African descent in Brazil. And, again, very different history.


  7. “conquest of women and other men through brute force is not only frowned upon but actually illegal”

    Says you!!! I’m not going back… wait what?

    I date outside of my race because I have bad credit… just keeping it really real


  8. So, you might see Asian women go for either Asian Men or White Men.
    And White Women going for White Men and Black Men.
    And Black Women going for Black Men and, well, Black Men of West African descent seem to have the greatest Muscularity of the different races.

    There is another component in terms of the “forbidden” or “exotic.” When interracial relations were very much frowned upon (after end of slavery but before interracial marriage was legalized) black women dated white men secretively, and a number of black women still go for white men today. However there is much social stigma working against black women selecting white men today, which is that these women are seen as “traitors” of the race if they date white men.

    If an invader kidnaps you and makes you his wife, you don?t really have much choice about whether or not you?re going to have sex with him.

    Forcing sex from a woman is different from taking a woman as a wife and mother of your children. Once those women became wives, they might have actually been treated decently for the most part, because it’s a different situation to be living with a woman than to randomly rape a woman that you’ll likely never see again. Women still have all kinds of ways to make a man’s life miserable, and there are stories from every culture of women that killed men while they were sleeping or poisoned their food, etc. Also it seems likely that the woman was a necessary part of the household, so the man couldn’t just beat her into a pulp to make her do all the work or else she would become too much of a mess to really be a good homemaker and mother.


  9. Ian – I wager the histories aren’t that different. Not an expert on UK and Brazilian blacks, but don’t both have a history of slavery/colonization, discrimination and underclass status in high-crime areas? So there are those similarities. And there’s also the biggest export America has, soft culture, in this case hip-hop. Internationally a lot of downtrodden slums are succumbing to the thug glamorization of hip-hop music and emulating the videos. Here’s another example: old-school Mexican immigrants in LA. Their Indian ancestors were exploited by Europeans through colonization and slavery, I’m sure there was a kidnapping and/or raping of wives from other Indian tribes as well as from Europeans, then the early immgrants to LA would constantly get fucked with in their communities by white people (think Zoot Suit Riots and white mobs) and did not enjoy equal protection under the law (lot of white servicemen got off scott free during the Zoot Suit riots)…it makes sense that Mexican women would have a tradition of valuing alpha dog thugs in a lot of those LA Mexican communities for many of the same reasons black women do. I would imagine women with the tendency to get with the biggest badass tended to fare better in those communities well into the 20th century.

    VK -exactly what I’m talking about. With a white or Asian chick, bad credit alone is enough to confer bad boy status a lot of the time.

    Hope:

    Forcing sex from a woman is different from taking a woman as a wife and mother of your children. Once those women became wives, they might have actually been treated decently for the most part, because it?s a different situation to be living with a woman than to randomly rape a woman that you?ll likely never see again.

    Totally agree. The women often were treated decently for the most part once they became wives. However, I’m sure there were very negative repercussions if they refused to get with the program and kept up a resistance. It may not be rape as we usually think of it, but it was still a form of coercion in that I doubt the women really had the choice of saying no to the new marriage either.


  10. However there is much social stigma working against black women selecting white men today, which is that these women are seen as ?traitors? of the race if they date white men.

    Hope, it is my understanding that the stigma against Black Men dating White Women (or, any non-Black Woman) is MUCH greater than the stigma of Black Women dating outside of their race. At least, nowadays that stigma is greater. In the past, I think that you might be right.

    Also, it must be exotic for Asian Men to date Black Women, and vice versa, yet, that combination has the lowest numbers of any combination in America.


  11. Well, the UK did do a lot of colonizing, but that focus was really on India. The Blacks that live in the UK are, for the most part, immigrants from teh carribean. In other words, they chose to move to the UK. And, the grand majority moved after the cultural/social revolution of the 60′s and 70′s.

    As for Brazil, many people look to Brazil because their does not seem to be any color line. You do not have, say, 80% of the population that is distinctly White and 20% distinctly Black.

    It is much more of a general spectrum, yet, dark skinned Brazilians are often living at the lowest rung of the ladder and light skinned at the top.

    Also, there has also been this idea that Brazil was much more laid back about these kinds of things. You even get a little of that idea from Roosh’s recent travels.

    So, my point is, these three places, America, Brazil and the UK, have significantly different histories, yet, the relationship preferences are probably pretty similar. I am not too familiar with Brazil, but having most of my family in Scotland, I am fairly familiar with what goes on there.


  12. Ha, this is actually one stat I remember from Steve Sailer! I just looked it up:

    Black women’s resentment of intermarriage has become a staple of daytime talk shows, hit movies like “Waiting to Exhale,” and magazine articles. Black novelist Bebe Moore Campbell described her and her tablemates’ reactions upon seeing a black actor enter a restaurant with a blonde: “In unison, we moaned, we groaned, we rolled our eyes heavenward…. Then we all shook our heads as we lamented for the 10,000th time the perfidy of black men, and cursed trespassing white women who dared to ‘take our men.’”

    The Census Bureau confirmed black women’s complaints that white women were more likely to marry black men than white men were to marry black women. In 2000, African-American men had white wives 2.65 times more often than black women had white husbands. In other words, in 73 percent of black-white couples, the husband was black and wife was white.

    (This interracial gender gap is even sharper among black-white couples who cohabit without being married. Five times as many black men live with white women as white men live with black women.)

    Black women date interracially at a much, MUCH lower rate than black men. I don’t know how much of that is due to a lack of interest from white men, but I do know from black females in my family and circle of friends that a lot of the taboo against black women dating white men is self-imposed. Apparently Asians have the same problem in that Asian women date interracialy at a much higher rate than Asian men, I believe in the same proportion as black men to black women. A proposed solution would be Asian men with black women, I suppose, but that doesn’t seem to happen to often, maybe for that masculinity/muscularity thing Ian mentioned.


  13. Well, the UK did do a lot of colonizing, but that focus was really on India. The Blacks that live in the UK are, for the most part, immigrants from teh carribean. In other words, they chose to move to the UK. And, the grand majority moved after the cultural/social revolution of the 60?s and 70?s.

    Yes, but thanks to natural selection and their history of slavery and colonization in Jamaica in particular, I’m sure a lot of the predisposition to date an alpha thug appears for the same reasons as here. Jamaican slums for example can be VERY harsh, and many of the organized crime gangs that come from Jamaica’s slums are especially vicious (e.g. Splash Posse). Also keep something in mind with immigration: many of the people who traditionally immigrate to America and the UK are the underclass and downtrodden, the ones who are on the lower rungs of the socioeconomic ladder in their home country. The well-off elites are often the ones that stay behind in the home country because they have no reason to leave. They have it good at home. So if the tendency to date an alpha thug really is a combination of evolution and culture, I imagine that immigrants would tend to fit that profile perfectly because they tended to have the most harsh conditions in their home countries.


  14. A proposed solution would be Asian men with black women, I suppose, but that doesn?t seem to happen to often, maybe for that masculinity/muscularity thing Ian mentioned.

    There is a very strong disincentive among Asian Americans to date African Americans. I dated a black guy in high school, and I knew my parents would have disapproved strongly if they knew about it. If those women more on the feminine side want more masculine men, then there would be a lot more Asian female / black male pairings than we see today.

    It is a very much a cultural thing that Asians prefer whites. There is not only not as much taboo about dating white people, but it is encouraged subtly (oh, my grandchildren will be lighter-skinned and better-looking!). Asian men would like to date white women, but white women are not interested, but I have seen several marriages that are Asian male / white female combinations.


  15. Whoa, this is some gully material here. My experience has been that black women do like that alpha dog type dude that can protect them. The fake thugs running around all over the place makes so much sense now since black women are only going to feel some cat they think is “dangerous”

    From the way you describe it, black women are using thugs for security and sex because they have their own power now. If the thug cleans up his act and gets himself together, the black woman will leave. So in this case, if a thug or any other black man wants survive and escape prison or death, he is better off shunning black women completely.

    You already mentioned that educated black men tend to date outside of their race because black women want thugs. I want to take that analysis a step further. I think that educated black men and black thugs will date other races because having a relationship with a black woman is too dangerous.

    R.O.’s last blog post..(Idols) Leah Dizon


  16. I’ll holla

    I think there are a lot of logical leaps going on with psychological evolution. I think a lot of its conventional wisdom is shaped by what we interpret how things used to be, which we don’t really know. As an anthropologist, I’m suspicious of cultural phenomena being explained through biology.

    How about if popular culture idolized Sydney and Denzel instead of fools like Tony Yayo and The Game? How about if doing time was seen as something other than a badge of honor? In a sub-culture whose battle cry seems to be “I gotta get mine”, why wouldn’t a woman like a dude who does whatever he can to get his?

    That being said, what kind of black women are we talking about here? All black women? Did Omorosa and Condi fantasize about the ODB before his untimely departure? Is it common for educated black women to slum it? Where I am, the black dudes all go for Asians. Cuz I’m in Asia. Also, to quote something a close friend of mine once said, “White chicks? I’ll kick it widdem, but that’s about it. They all wanna use me to get back at their dads.” Attributing everything to “daddy issues” is way easier than reading a bunch of other stuff.

    …and that’s just my interpretation of the sichayshun


  17. whoops. i meant evolutionary psychology.


  18. I’ll second my anthropologist brother’s sentiment above: as a biologist, I’m skeptical of cultural phenomenon being explained through biology. As an evolutionary biologist, I can safely say that the evidentiary basis for the above ev psych claims is virtually zero. The notion of women being raped frequently and requiring protection from strong men is pure myth, and has always seemed to me to be more a male fantasy used to justify modern social structures, rather than good science. And there’s also no evidence for the idea, nor cause to believe, that the past few hundred years of history could have led to a stark difference in the underlying genetics between blacks and whites.

    A sociological explanation seems much more likely. Culture is a powerful force, and human beings are easily shaped by it. And black people in particular face a storm of cultural pressures telling them how they should be. We would do as well to suppose that black men are genetically inclined to be more “thuggish”, rather than to assume (as is more likely) that they are responding to demands on their masculinity or their general societal powerlessness by demonstrating the only kind of power they can get ahold of – raw physical power. Since black men absorb this message, why shouldn’t black women? They, also, come to believe that the only possible expression of black power can be through guns and physical intimidation. Of course they’ll look with skepticism on the black man who tries to tread a different path – becoming educated, getting a high-paying job, etc. Culture has taught them that’s the path to success for white people – blacks will never succeed that way, and so they look for the traits they believe are markers of the only way a black man can assert his preeminence. Black men can only succeed as thugs and pimps – that IS the message of pop culture. Why would black women believe otherwise?

    saurabh’s last blog post..Rhinocrisy Guide to Being Evil, part III

  19. steve lurkel on May 6th, 2008 at 6:09 PM

    nice, thought-provoking post, T.

    yeah, I used to get that “not thug enough” vibe…


  20. As an anthropologist, I?m suspicious of cultural phenomena being explained through biology / evolutionary psychology.
    I?ll second my anthropologist brother?s sentiment above: as a biologist, I?m skeptical of cultural phenomenon being explained through biology.

    I would echo these sentiments as well. Much of what we observe is being explained backwards with “nature,” but “nurture” plays an important role in many things. What people think of as “nature” can also include a lot of “nurture,” including prenatal / womb environment and developmental factors. Just a small example: girls that are raised not in the presence of their biological fathers tend to menstruate earlier.

    There are many rich interactions between genetics, psychology, upbringing, culture, subculture, peer pressure, personal choices and just random chance. To only look at one or two of these is not getting the whole story. For example Asian women with white men: according to evo. psych enthusiasts, this is purely explained by biology, since Asian women are more feminine than white men they will just go for white men. It’s not nearly as simple as that.

    Black men that were prominent in the black community in the early twentieth century were more educated: W.E.B. DuBois, Booker T. Washington, Bert Williams, George Walker, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., etc. There was also a period during which athletic or talented black men were more glorified than thugs, e.g. Jesse Owens, Joe Louis, Nat King Cole, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, and so on. The ghetto / thug / gang culture is a relatively new phenomenon.


  21. T, are you black or part black? I’m just curious if you have preferences in women one way or the other. for instance, leaving aside specific examples of beautiful women which you can find in any race, do you find women of one race more attractive in general than other races?

    roissy’s last blog post..Shaming Girls For Their Bad Choices


  22. So if the tendency to date an alpha thug really is a combination of evolution and culture, I imagine that immigrants would tend to fit that profile perfectly because they tended to have the most harsh conditions in their home countries.

    Well, wouldn’t that also apply to the Chinese immigration to America in the 19th century. Or, for that matter, the Scottish, Irish, German, Polish and Italian immigration as well?


  23. If those women more on the feminine side want more masculine men, then there would be a lot more Asian female / black male pairings than we see today.

    The idea, as I understand it, goes like this: women prefer a proportional increase in muscularity and masculinity. So Asian Men are more muscular & masculine than Asian Women. And White Men are even more so. With Black Men of West African descent being on the extreme end.

    So, Asian Women would not go to the extreme, which is probably why you don’t see too many Asian Girls with big, hulking White Guys. They are either with Asian Men or average White Men.

    In fact, I believe that the split is:
    Asian Female and White Male: ~75%
    Asian Male and White Female: ~25%

    and

    White Female and Black Male: ~75%
    White Male and Black Feale: ~25%

    That is, for interracial couples.


  24. Excellent article, my jaw is still on the floor!

    Even white women claimed I wasn’t “thug” enough…………….


  25. I’m appalled by this post! :( I’m also disappointed! I really have been coming here and hovering and peeking in to see what’s been going on for months… And I read THIS as Barack Obama won the Democratic Primary in North Carolina (my home-state) this evening… I just finished my second year of law school and I have just one more to go!!! :) Woohoo! I was a Sociology major in college, but I don’t claim to be a sociologist by any stretch of the imagination! Anyway!

    The generalizations that were tossed around along with several awkward misspellings has left me bewildered. This post doesn’t rise to the same standard that I’ve seen on this blog in the past. I actually enjoyed reading about pimps on this blog! And LOVE! Goodness! Now, I read this and it’s borderline racist AND sexist! Black women have not nearly overcome the racism AND sexism that is suggested heretofore. To suggest that Black women ascending up the corporate ladder need to then dip back down into some thuggish, ruggish bin of jeans sagging, gun-toting, ill-mannered bin of men is appalling and ignorant! There is definitely a rebellious phase through which ALL people go in their lives. However, to attempt to shackle EDUCATED Black women to a genre of men that don’t seemingly mesh with their goals and accomplishments based on faulty historical extrapolations and reasoning is shameful. It’s irresponsible, too! And, what gives you some insight on how EDUCATED Black women think, feel, reason, and decide on matters of the heart? After all, you’re not an EDUCATED Black woman! I cannot say I will not visit your blog again because I’ve enjoyed your posts in the past… I’m just seriously hoping you’re not going to continue down THIS path!

  26. johnny five on May 7th, 2008 at 3:32 AM

    If society ever reverted back to the dangerously harsh, brutish free-for-all it used to be in the old days, the stock of beta providers would drop drastically.

    the stock of said providers has already dropped drastically, because divorce legislation has stripped away all incentives for women to stay married to them once they’ve popped out a couple of children.

    marriage has become such a mockery that my own grandfather, a hardcore catholic filipino family patriarch, has begun counseling the boys in my family not to get married unless they return to the ‘old country’ where divorce is nonexistent and feminism has not tainted the fountain of family life.

    given the current state of divorce laws, what incentive does any american beta* have to enter into an arrangement from which the woman is empowered, if not outright encouraged, to eventually leave to pursue her elusive ‘satisfaction’ – and yet he’ll be obliged to maintain her standard of living?

    *this should be the title of some documentary or something

  27. johnny five on May 7th, 2008 at 3:57 AM

    And of course the glamorization of thug life through hip-hop probably doesn?t help things either.

    i have thought long and hard about why this glamorization has continued to mushroom, and, lo and behold, the answer lies right beneath our noses.

    HIP-HOP CULTURE IS THE LAST REDOUBT OF TRADITIONAL MASCULINITY.*

    read this statement over and over again until it sinks in.

    american boys are raised from the cradle to suppress anything related to naturally masculine proclivities:
    * restless schoolboys? can’t have that; let’s medicate.
    * competition? can’t have that; let’s give all the kids identical trophies at the end of the year.
    * fighting to preserve honor? can’t have that; let’s try to sing kumbaya with bullies instead.
    * normal childhood risk-taking and boundary-testing? can’t have that; let’s not ALLOW boys to fail, so that even one actual failure in the real world is crippling.
    * breaking a few bones here and there? can’t have that; let’s use lawsuits and outrageous product liability to teach our young men that everything is always someone else’s fault.
    * wanting girls to be feminine? oh, now we really, really can’t have that. go to the office at once.

    i was raised mostly in the ’80′s South, which still afforded me a fair amount of the above qualities. my family moved around a bit, though, and i did what i called ‘hard time’ in anodyne midwestern and new england towns – whereupon i immediately gravitated toward the hip-hop scene, because that was absolutely the only place where the aforementioned shibboleths of masculinity were acceptable.

    and it wasn’t regional. in high school the mass media offered me a dichotomy best summarized by the following options: on channel A, the new mainstream american male archetype, as epitomized by the feckless ne’er-do-well homer simpson; on channel B, coolio, living up to his name by taking a fantastic voyage to the beach with a trunk that runneth over with high-estrogen bitches.

    i have no doubt that hip-hop culture has achieved its apotheosis among more males than it might – especially naturally high-testosterone males – simply because it’s the only game in town when it comes to masculinity.

    and because black men dominate hip-hop culture, they are naturally seen as the last remaining rearguard of masculinity. although cuckold couples are currently still part of the lunatic fringe, their near-universal preference for black ‘bulls’, always of the thuggish variety, proves yet again that hip-hop is where american masculinity has gone to die.

    *not preserved in pure form; see below

  28. johnny five on May 7th, 2008 at 5:30 AM

    addendum to the italicized comment above:

    tragically, hip-hop culture doesn’t preserve masculinity in any sort of pure form; it preserves a version of masculinity that has been adulterated by:
    * arrested development
    * vindictiveness and grudge-holding
    * escalation of petty squabbles
    * backstabbing

    what adjective describes all these things?
    .
    .
    .
    if you said ‘feminine’, you win!

    this is what happens when you take the last segment of society that’s allowed to express masculine urges openly — and leave them to be raised entirely by women.
    not a pretty picture.

  29. Larry Cravetz on May 7th, 2008 at 6:48 AM

    What you did not address is why White women prefer a White woman thug for the white house, instead of the far superior candidate who is neither White nor a woman! (and he isn’t an old man either!!)


  30. Great article. But be careful with the “hundreds of thousands of years” argument. Whenever you think of human evolution, remember the Y-Chromosomal Adam that we all are descended from who lived about 60,000 years ago in Africa.

    The differences between the races are probably not due to slave-induced factors, but instead due to different climates races evolved in since then. Specifically, due to different densities of populations that could be supported in different regions of the world due to available food production quantities. In fact T, I’d highly recommend Jared Diamond’s ‘Guns Germs and Steel’ to you, I bet you’d find it fascinating.

    dchero’s last blog post..Randomness: Enemy of Humans


  31. Holy shit are these a lot of responses. I’m going to have to respond to all these later.


  32. Here are the stats on interracial marriage:

    White man + White woman: 50,224,000
    White man + Asian woman: 530,000
    White man + Black woman: 117,000

    Black man + White woman: 286,000
    Black man + Black woman: 3,965,000
    Black man + Asian woman: 34,000

    Asian man + White woman: 174,000
    Asian man + Black woman: 6,000
    Asian man + Asian woman: 2,493,000

    From these stats: interracial marriage is rare compared to same-race marriage.

    Whites are the least likely to marry interracially, although in absolute terms whites are involved in interracial marriages more than any other racial group. 1.9% of married white women and 2.2% of married white men have a non-white spouse. 1.0% of married white men are married to an Asian woman, and 1.0% of married white women are married to a man classified as “other”.

    6.6% of married black men, and 2.8% of married black women, have a white spouse. Only 0.1% of married black women are married to an Asian man, representing the least represented marital combination. African American men are 2.6 times more likely to be married to White American women than African American women to White American men. In 2007, black-white marriage remains a rare event: 4.6% of married Blacks marry whites, and 0.4% of married whites marry blacks.

    19.5% of married Asian women and 7.2% of married Asian men have a non-Asian spouse. 17.1% of married Asian women are married to a white spouse, and 3.5% of married Asian men have a spouse woman classified as “other”. Asian Americans of both genders who are U.S.-raised are much more likely to be married with whites than their non-U.S.-raised counterparts. Not all Asian ethnicities have similar intermarriage patterns, for instance, South Asian Americans were overwhelmingly endogamous, with a small amount of outmarriage to other ethnic groups.

    Chinese American men married African American women in high proportions to their total marriage numbers due to few Chinese American women being in the United States. After the Emancipation Proclamation, many Chinese people immigrated to the American South, particularly Arkansas, to work on plantations. The tenth US Census of Louisiana counted 57% of interracial marriages between these Chinese Americans to be with African Americans and 43% to be with European American women. After the Chinese Exclusion Act, Chinese American men had fewer potential Chinese American wives, so they increasingly married African American women on the West Coast.

    Rates of interracial cohabitation are significantly higher than those of marriage. Although only 7 percent of married black men have white wives, 13 percent of cohabitating black men have white partners. Black women are one-and-a-half times more likely to cohabitate with a white partner than to marry him. 25 percent of married Asian women have white spouses, but 45 percent of cohabitating Asian women are with white men?higher than the percentage cohabitating with Asian men (44 percent).


  33. Above post stats are from Wikipedia.

    The female choice is a reflection of cultural (dominant and group) values as well as psychology, biology and other factors. The male choice is basically from the pool of females who are receptive to his advances.

    Since Asian families do not frown upon Asian/white pairings as much, Asian females are equally as likely to pick a white man as an Asian man as a mate. Women of other races tend to prefer men from their own race as partners.

    Since whites are the largest population group in America, this means that an ethnic/racial minority in America is more likely to come into contact with them, and mate selection occurs among the group that a person knows and meets, which tends to be white.

    I find it interesting that the number of black male / white female marriage is not that much higher than the number of Asian male / white female marriage, only a difference of about 110,000. But it is supposed that the black man is much more masculine than the Asian man. This is not great support for the pure biology argument, in my opinion.


  34. R.O. – Great blog there, I’ll be checking you out again.

    paully and saurubh – if you look at my post again, I constantly use the terms “evolution and culture”. I don’t think of it as an either-or deal, I totally acknowledge the role culture plays. Yes black culture values thugs, but why? Isn’t it possible that evolution and slave culture made thug genes more valuable and desired, which in turn led to a cultural tendency in the black community to celebrate thugs? I think the very fact that black culture celebrates thug culture so much may not be a refutation of my gene theory but rather support for it.

    Ian Lewis –

    Well, wouldn?t that also apply to the Chinese immigration to America in the 19th century. Or, for that matter, the Scottish, Irish, German, Polish and Italian immigration as well?

    It would apply to those cultures, and as a result many of the early immigrant communities had a strong organized crime problem. There are two key differences though. First, none of them had a history of hundreds of years of slavery combined with no sense of their history or lineage before said slavery. It’s important to realize that slavery in America existed from 1619 to 1865, that’s 246 years. Slavery has only been abolished for 143 years. That means that American blacks have lived as slaves in this country for almost twice the amount of time that they’ve been free in this country. 246 years of mistreatment, poor education, illiteracy, no rights under law, having their nuclear families routinely broken up at will whenever the slavemaster felt like selling off parts of a family, the slavemaster having the right to violate black women whenever they pleased without it being considered rape…that’s a lot of social pathology for a community to build up under those conditions. Those other groups had stabilizing things like a sense of history, strong nuclear families, literacy, education, and a support system that blacks lacked thanks to slavery. After emancipation blacks made big strides in spite of virulent racism and were steadily improving their lot, but then came the welfare state created by Lydon Johnson’s Great Society in the 60s which undid a lot of the progress, undermined the black nuclear family and work ethic and pretty much ravaged the black community for decades and turned it into a poverty-stricken matriarchy. The other difference between American blacks and the groups you mention is, with the exception of the Chinese, the ability to assimilate. Blacks, like Mexicans and other people of color, are severely limited in the extent to which they can assimilate. White immigrants were not only able to assimilate and eventually be considered white, but they actively sought to assimilate. There’s a great book called Working Toward Whiteness: How America’s Immigrants Became White: The Strange Journey from Ellis Island to the Suburbs that describes this process. Not only is it physically harder for blacks and other people of color physically assimilate, but there is also a cultural animosity against assimilation in those communities as well, especially after the Black Power movement in the 60s and 70s stressed being black and proud.

    steve lurkel – thanks for stopping by.

    Libra Lady -

    To suggest that Black women ascending up the corporate ladder need to then dip back down into some thuggish, ruggish bin of jeans sagging, gun-toting, ill-mannered bin of men is appalling and ignorant!

    Okay, first off thanks for the kind words, but WHOA did you misunderstand me! I never said that educated black women of today NEEDED thugs or that they should have them. I’m just saying that the turbulent history of blacks in this country did a lot to make being an tough, alpha dog thug the most appealing type of black man to mate with if you wanted to maximize your chances of survival. As a result of this genetic and cultural conditioning, it probably explains why many educated black women go through a phase of chasing after some of the thuggiest guys around. Sure all women go through a bad boy phase, but there’s no denying that black women do take the thug love a little too far, even many of the educated ones (and I know firsthand from my own college experience).

    Johnny Five – comments of the month, just AWESOME. Have nothing to add or disagree with. Did you read this post by the way? I touched on a lot of the same issues. The other group of men in the West who deserve props for at least trying to celebrate being alpha males are the soccer hooligans, probably the last true men in the West. And unlike the kids in the ghetto they have a paternal influence too to help counteract those feminine tendencies you mention are common in ghetto men.

    Larry – laughing my ass off at “white woman thug” to describe Hillary!

    DCHero – thanks for the correction on the hundreds of thousands of years thing. I have Guns, Germ and Steel but haven’t read it yet. I’m looking forward to it though.


  35. Hope, I usually like your input, but one comment you made I disagreed with so much I had to give it its own comment:

    Black men that were prominent in the black community in the early twentieth century were more educated: W.E.B. DuBois, Booker T. Washington, Bert Williams, George Walker, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., etc. There was also a period during which athletic or talented black men were more glorified than thugs, e.g. Jesse Owens, Joe Louis, Nat King Cole, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, and so on. The ghetto / thug / gang culture is a relatively new phenomenon.

    Trust me on this, the ghetto/thug/gang culture is NOT a relatively new phenomenon in the black community. Even before providing links and stats, let’s just attack this from a common sense level. In a largely illiterate community, recently freed from slavery but given little practical skills outside of menial labor and constantly discriminated against for jobs and other opportunities, how can criminality not taken root? There’s no way that black thugging only started recently, those are the exact conditions that often lead to the most criminality. Check out the old, downtrodden immigrant communities at the turn of the century like the Irish, Italians and Jews for example and how organized crime thrived in their tight-knit, poorly educated, downtrodden and oppressed communities. You are very mistaken if you think W.E.B. DuBois was the norm.

    For example check this out about the Stagger Lee archetype. It’s become a popular piece of American folklore but it was based on a real event, a shooting by a black pimp and thug in 1895 named Lee Shelton. And check out this piece about the real Stagger Lee, which sheds some light on black thug culture in the post-Slavery South

    The author has a theory about why a black pimp and murderer like Stagger Lee Shelton has been celebrated and mythologized in black culture since the 1800s, and it ties into my post:

    This was because, while southern blacks had to abide by the twisted laws and customs which created segregation and the Jim Crow system, Stagger Lee defied white authority and was so “bad” that he could get away with it. He was an admired figure whose legend revolved around his badness, a badness which put him above the white man’s law and allowed him to pass freely through the racial boundaries established by Jim Crow.

    In a world where the square black men who lived on the straight and narrow were routinely emasculated and even treated violently by white racists and their Jim Crow laws, the black thug was the least emasculated and most alpha role model around. They were also able to get a lot of power in the political machinery of the era.

    As for the other examples you mention, many of them don’t fall under my analysis from the original post. Take W.E.B. DuBois, for example. He was born up North in Massachusetts. His father was Haitian, not African-American. Haiti was the very first slave colony in the world to revolt and gain its freedom very early in its history, meaning that slave pathologies didn’t penetrate the country’s psyche as deeply as it did with blacks in America. His family on his father’s side were educated free black elites in Haiti and the north. Not only was DuBois’ father descended from free blacks, some of his relatives like Dr. James DuBois from Poughkeepsie, NY actually OWNED SLAVES. If you look at DuBois’ history too, you’ll find that despite some discrimination, growing up in Massachusetts was much less oppressive for his family than being black in the post-slavery, Jim Crow South. Whites often even helped his family by providing his family a house to rent, giving him odd jobs and helping him with his education. He spent much of his early life blissfully unaware of racism until out of towners from the South came to visit Massachusetts and he became aware of it for the first time. So basically, W.E.B. DuBois grew up in the integrated north rather than an insulated newly-freed black community in the Jim Crow South, he family did not have many of the pathologies that come from extended periods of slavery and he and many of his family members were highly educated since he descended from Northern blacks that were free for generations already on his mother’s side and from an elite Haitian lineage on his dad’s side. W.E.B. DuBois is not a good example to refute my theory because my theory is about a whole different type of black person.

    What is ironic about you bringing up W.E.B. DuBois though is that he himself is proof that your theory about black thuggery being a recent phenomenon is wrong. Why? Because DuBois himself was obsessed with discovering a solution to rampant black crime!

    From his Wikipedia page:

    Du Bois began writing about crime in 1897, shortly after receiving his Ph.D. from Harvard (Zuckerman, 2004, p. 2). His first work involving crime, A Program of Social Reform, was shortly followed by a second, The Study of the Negro Problems (Du Bois, 1897; Du Bois, 1898). The first work that involved in depth criminological study and theorizing was The Philadelphia Negro, in which a large section was devoted to analysis of the black criminal population in Philadelphia (Du Bois, 1899).

    Du Bois (1899) sets forth three significant parts to his criminological theory. The first major part is that Negro crime is caused by the strain of the ?social revolution? experienced by black Americans as they began to adapt to their new found freedom and position in the nation. This theory is very similar to Durkheim?s (1893) Anomie theory, but applied specifically to the newly freed Negro. Du Bois (1900a, p. 3) credits Emancipation with causing the boom in crime in the black population. He explains “the appearance of crime among the southern Negroes is a symptom of wrong social conditions- of a stress of life greater than a large part of the community can bear” (Du Bois, 1901b, p. 745). He distinguishes between the strains on southern Negroes and those on northern Negroes because the problems of city life in the North were very different from those of the Southern rural sharecropper.

    Du Bois? (1904a) theory?s second major part is that black crime declined as the African American population moved towards a more equal status. This idea, referred to later as “stratification,” is strikingly similar to Merton?s (1968) structure-strain theory of deviance. In The Philadelphia Negro and later statistical studies, Du Bois found direct correlations between levels of employment, education, and criminal activity.

    The final part of the theory is that the Talented Tenth or the “exceptional men” of the black race would be the ones to lead the race and save it from its criminal problems (Du Bois, 1903, p. 33). Du Bois sees the evolution of a class system within black American society as necessary to carry out the improvements necessary to reduce crime in the black population (Du Bois, 1903). He sets forth a number of solutions to crime that this Talented Tenth must endeavor to enact (Du Bois, 1903, p. 2).

    He is perhaps the first criminologist to combine historical fact with social change, and used the combination to postulate his theories. He credited the crime increase after the Civil War to the “increased complexity of life,” competition for jobs in industry, and the mass exodus from the farmland and immigration to the cities (Du Bois, 1899). Du Bois (1899, p. 64) states in The Philadelphia Negro:

    “Naturally then, if men are suddenly transported from one environment to another, the result is lack of harmony with the new conditions; lack of harmony with the new physical surroundings leading to disease and death or modification of physique; lack of harmony with social surroundings leading to crime.”

    So as you can see, by DuBois’s own words in his body of work, black thuggery was not a new phenomenon, I’d go into your other examples too, but this comment is too long as it is. Let’s just say that many of them have a lot more alpha dog thug traits than you’d think, even MLK, whose history is often sanitized. If you want to do more reading about black crime and its 20th century history, this link is a good start.


  36. Another comment I want to isolate from saurabh:

    The notion of women being raped frequently and requiring protection from strong men is pure myth, and has always seemed to me to be more a male fantasy used to justify modern social structures, rather than good science. And there?s also no evidence for the idea, nor cause to believe, that the past few hundred years of history could have led to a stark difference in the underlying genetics between blacks and whites.

    I suggest you read up on slave narratives. Or visit a slave museum. Then tell me that rapes weren’t rampant. Just the existence of various shades of light skinned blacks during the era of slavery I would think would be alone to make you doubt that claim. Those didn’t exactly come from loving courtships and monogamous marriages between blacks and whites. The slavemasters regularly raped the slave women. From this link to PBS Slavery Documentary:

    African American women had to endure the threat and the practice of sexual exploitation. There were no safeguards to protect them from being sexually stalked, harassed, or raped, or to be used as long-term concubines by masters and overseers. The abuse was widespread, as the men with authority took advantage of their situation. Even if a woman seemed agreeable to the situation, in reality she had no choice. Slave men, for their part, were often powerless to protect the women they loved.

    Also, you claim that there?s no evidence nor cause to believe, that the past few hundred years of history could have led to a stark difference in the underlying genetics between blacks and whites. Here also I disagree. Just the process of slave traders rounding up and capturing Africans for 300 years to sell to US slavers would have a strongly selective process: many of the smartest Africans would escape capture, only the strongest will have survived the voyage (mortality rates were INCREDIBLY high on the middle passage), and only the most mentally resilient would have had the mental fortitude to survive the horrors of slavery. Since a slave could be whipped, sold or even killed for learning to read and trying to educate himself, outright intellectualism was dangerous and cunning was a more useful skill for a slave to have. A perfect example of this is the story of Frederick Douglass’s autobiography where he described the cunning way he tricked white kids into teaching him to read. And the successive breeding of slaves was controlled by the slave owners, especially after the Transatlantic Slave Trade ended and they could no longer import the strongest Africans. This lack of new slave imports combined with the high mortality rate of slaves made breeding slaves big business, and some slaveowners even turned their plantations into breeding farms, where they mated the best slave stock with each other and sold the slaves to “deficit states.”

    This link here has some short excerpts from slave autobiographies and books about slavery that discuss both the rapes and genetic breeding that took place.

    Due to all these selection factors, from the capture of the slaves in Africa to the selective breeding of slaves here in America, I don’t think it’s far fetched to theorize that American slavery created genetic differences among surviving African Americans that make them differ not only from American whites, but also from African blacks.

    T.’s last blog post..Why Black American Chicks Like Thugs


  37. Roissy – Almost forgot, to answer you: I’m full black, both parents, Haitian descent, American born. Racially speaking I don’t really have any sexual preferences. I don’t naturally find one race more attractive than another. I will say that within each race though, there are certain types I really like. Like among black women I think East Africans (Somalia, Eritrea, Ethiopia) and West Indian women tend to be especially gorgeous. Among white women I like Mediteranneans and Eastern Europeans the most. Among Latinas I like Puerto Ricans, Dominicans and Columbians. And so on. I’ve never been one to have a sweeping preference/fetish for one race over all others, but within each race I have my regional preferences. Does that make sense?


  38. Trust me on this, the ghetto/thug/gang culture is NOT a relatively new phenomenon in the black community. Even before providing links and stats, let?s just attack this from a common sense level. In a largely illiterate community, recently freed from slavery but given little practical skills outside of menial labor and constantly discriminated against for jobs and other opportunities, how can criminality not taken root? There?s no way that black thugging only started recently

    While that may be true, you cannot deny that those particular more educated black men did become famous and more prominent in the black community as well as the larger white culture in general. In other words, such men seemed more respected than the “alpha dog thugs” among both blacks and whites.

    The “relatively new and recent” part I mentioned is about the glorification of current mainstream media (i.e. white culture in America) with respect to the black thug culture. Criminality and thuggery no doubt existed among the poor of every color spectrum. My husband’s family, for example, is poor white southern and has produced tons of criminals with violent streaks. However, the middle class and elites seldom glorified thuggery, prostitution and ghettos to the extent that they do today in terms of buying rap music and flashing gangster signs for “fun” and “entertainment.”

    My main point is that people in this culture are exposed to stereotypes through massively disseminated forms of information in the media, news, TV, radio, etc. and so are heavily influenced by such. The fact that the black man is portrayed as a dangerous thug and glorified in that form on TV undoubtedly has influenced the decision-making of women who seek status in their mates — the black women who want that thuggish black man might not necessarily be responding to two hundred years of slavery in America, but modern cultural conditioning and social structures (i.e. welfare system).

    If you can produce evidence that in the early twentieth century black women consistently preferred the black criminal thug over a black family man, then you may have a stronger point with respect to biology. Many black women in the mid-1900s chose to settle down with black working-class men who had the means to buy and own homes. For various reasons outlined in the article, suburban opportunities for working-class blacks diminished, leaving us with the situation that we see today where most suburbs predominantly white. In other words, blacks are not ghettoized for biological / evolutionary reasons alone, and black women do not choose ghetto, thuggish men solely due to biological or psychological factors.


  39. the black women who want that thuggish black man might not necessarily be responding to two hundred years of slavery in America, but modern cultural conditioning and social structures (i.e. welfare system).

    Hope, this is the second time in the comments section that you act like I ignored the role of cultural conditioning. Look back at the original post and look at how often I use the words “culture” and “cultural conditioning.” You bring up the fact that many black women in the mid-1900s chose ot settle down with black working class men and buy and own homes. Now go back to my original post and see how I mention that black women would often settle with beta providers and that the black community was gradually on the rise as they gained rights and education, all of which was derailed by the modern welfare state. You then mention that it might not just be slavery that’s at fault but also modern cultural conditioning and social structures like the welfare systen. Now go back to my original post and notice my paragraphs of the role welfare played in glorifying modern thug culture. You are basically taking arguments I made, claiming I never made them, then using them to respond to me. Every aspect you claim I left out is right there in the original post.

    In other words, blacks are not ghettoized for biological / evolutionary reasons alone, and black women do not choose ghetto, thuggish men solely due to biological or psychological factors.

    Well in that case it’s a good thing my original post never made those claims. Welfare, cultural conditioning, evolution, biology, psychology, slavery…all of them are listed as causes. I never claimed any one aspect was the “sole cause.”


  40. You are basically taking arguments I made, claiming I never made them, then using them to respond to me. Every aspect you claim I left out is right there in the original post.

    No, I did read all parts of your original post, which is actually why I included the comment on welfare in parenthesis. My response is to your insinuation that I did not see any history of violence among blacks, and I clarified in my response. My original comment about DuBois and MLK was also in part in response to the comment by Ian Lewis which implied that women select mates based on biology more than other factors.

    Personally, I do not believe that biology and evolution are playing nearly as big of a role as you proposed. I also never wrote that you said that they were exclusive causes, but my point was also being made to others (here and elsewhere) who tend to heavily emphasize these factors. I don’t want to downplay the importance of either biology (nature) or culture (nurture), as it is the interaction of the two that produces observable phenomenon. You yourself might take a balanced approach, but many will ignore one or the other.


  41. Personally, I date black chicks about as often as i vote in a presidential primary…and when i do, they gotta have that “good hair.”
    I can’t help it. I’m a product of my conditioning. I’m so conditioned that even my ‘conditioning’ has been conditioned.

    Smash’s last blog post..Reset


  42. I think a lot more can be explained by culture. American black women are very different from women raised outside of the American inner city culture. I noticed the stark differences when I dated a black girl myself from Zimbabwe. African American women have placed limitiations on themselves here in the US. They have made it taboo to date outside their race, leaving them with few available options and what’s available is quite troubling when considering the facts. The statistics describing the plight of black men are sobering. They are the most likely race to be incarcerated, killed, & poor.

    On top of all that, many men don’t find black women an attractive option either. African American women have a reputation for being unfeminine. All courtesy of inner city ghetto culture. It is unfortunate that there are so few exceptions but I’ve met a few black women that have gotten themselves out of the limiting mindset. Of course these women were all very attractive, sweet, and educated so they had options the moment they decided to have them.


  43. I think a lot more can be explained by culture. I noticed the stark differences when I dated a black girl myself from Zimbabwe. African American women have placed limitiations on themselves here in the US. They have made it taboo to date outside their race, leaving them with few available options and what?s available is quite troubling when considering the facts. The statistics describing the plight of black men are sobering. They are the most likely race to be incarcerated, killed, & poor.

    I think you’re falling into that same either-or trap of slavery versus evolution versus culture. They are intertwined in a way that can’t easily be neatly divided. Why does one race start in the ghetto and rise out of it while the other also starts in the ghetto but can’t rise out of it and is stuck in self-destructive and reckless behavior? You’re right that a lot of it can be explained by culture. But it’s a history of evolution, slavery, institutional racism and the welfare state that formed the self-destructive culture you mention in the first place.

    Take your Zimbabwe example. It has a different culture and have a different looking population than America’s blacks, but why? Why is their culture so different? Well first they were colonized, but they never suffered from the Transatlantic slave trade. They never suffered the scourge of slavery. This means that they didn’t develop a lot of the same pathologies. They didn’t have hundreds of years where the stabilizing influence of nuclear families, personal liberty and self-improvement were denied to them. There is not the same diaspora of color that was created by slavery culture, so less infighting among mulattoes, light-skinned and dark skinned blacks. They come up in a society that is majority black and mostly run by blacks, so less institutional racism and less outsider stigma.

    Ask anyone who’s ever spent serious jail time whether it changed them significantly or not. Some felons can’t even properly integrate back into society. If years of jail time can do that to a person, what would hundreds of years of cradle to the grave slavery do to a whole race’s ability to integrate into a society? Followed by decades of grinding poverty, Jim Crow laws, lynchings, institutional racism and then a welfare state that created financial incentives for single mothers and absentee fathers? Culture doesn’t pop up out of nowhere, it’s a culmination of all the evolution, pathologies and social history leading up to a particular point in time.

    That’s my problem with people framing this as culture vs. evolution vs. biology vs. social history. Because evolution, biology and social history are what precisely what FORMS a culture. A culture doesn’t just pop up out of nowhere at any given time fully formed.

    Take for example the hesitancy of black women to date white men. Now take the lack of problem black men have with dating white women. For nearly 250 years, white men routinely violated black women. The memory is kept alive when people see the range of complexions in the black community, in slave narratives still read today, in oral histories, etc. This probably created a powerful mental block for black women to date white men, even if this mental block exists purely on a subconscious level. This mental block is fading with time, but that history still accounts for a majority of black people’s time in this country. Your Zimbabwe girl didn’t descend from that same background and probably didn’t make those same associations. On the flipside, black men weren’t violated by white women. For hundreds of years while white men violated their women and emasculated them, white women were kept off-limits to them under penalty of death. The white woman was paraded in front of them as the ultimate prize, the jewel of the white man’s eye. It’s human nature for people to value something they are told is off-limits to them. I think that, plus the fact that there’s a subconscious revenge element that comes from sleeping with the white man’s woman, explains why black men are so much more open to interracial dating.


  44. You’re on the right track in explaining this phenomenon – the appeal of “bad boys” to all women, not just black ones – but wrong to assume that women want this kind of men for protection from other men.

    Yes, women put it in those terms all the time. But this explanation is self-serving, like many typical female comments on female nature. In fact, women are attracted to these sorts of men because they are more assertive, and even aggressive and violent, period. Women, or rather their genes, respond to bad boys because bad boys have the genes to father bad boys. From a mating with a bad boy, a woman combines her genes with that those which will allow her offspring – who shares half her genes, which she is unwittingly striving to serve – to better compete for resources, mating opportunities, etc. The woman is inclined to give her genes that edge.


  45. To state part of my argument more succinctly: Women are attracted to violent guys because the capacity for violence is ultimately, not just proximately, alluring to them. It’s much more the interests of their genes – to be more competitive when combined in offspring with bad boy genes – that their instincts are demanding they heed, than it is the the interests of their bodies – to stay safe from the violence of other males.


  46. Dear T,

    I thank you for responding to my comment. I must say that as an educated Black woman, I find it fascinating how much everyone, Black or not, woman or not, has to say about our psyches and why we collectively choose to date certain men, true or not… This has been an interesting dialogue to say the least… Hmmm…

    Also, I would like to thank you for answering Roissy’s question regarding your race and preference for women. It definitely adds more dimension to your commentary… I believe I read on someone’s post during Love Week that you were Hispanic… So, that gave me a different perception regarding your post prior to your admission.

    Thank you, again! Good luck with this post and all of the comments that keep pouring in regarding it!!

    LL :)


  47. pretty interesting post, T.! i don’t think it really says much hasn’t been already theorized about in scores of other books and papers about the sociology of black male-female relationships, but it was still enjoyable to read!

    seems like the discussion in the comments is even more interesting, so i’m about to dig into that…but first of all, i want to comment on something that has bothered me a little bit for a while…

    i’ve found that in a lot of your discussion of the Alpha male concept, you seem to use the term “beta male” incorrectly. biologically speaking the Alpha male is the aggressive, dominant male and the Beta male is also aggressive, but not necessarily dominant… either because he is the contender to the Alpha male, or is an Alpha male who has been dethroned.

    Michael Cena and his kind of meek, sensitive man is definitely not “Beta”… he might be Omega, or some other letter somewhere down the alphabet.

    of course, i’ve noticed that the term “beta male” has become more commonly used to describe the “weak” man on a colloquial level (probably due to the instant irony of contrasting it to “alpha” and the average person’s limited knowledge of the Greek alphabet) but if you’re trying to have even a semi-serious conversation about biology, psychology or the like, i think it’s confusing to use it that way.

    okay… time to check out those comments!


  48. actually, on second thought… this is essentially a pop psychology discussion and you never claimed to be presenting any kind of scientific treatise, so i guess the colloquial use of “beta male” is not inapt.

    sorry for the nitpicking! carry on…


  49. Uchenna, you are 100% right about the correct usage of beta male and I’m glad you pointed it out. In it’s proper, scientific usage it is still an aggressive, high functioning male and not a derogatory term at all.

    In recent years though, beta male has become a colloquialism for a passive, opposite of an alpha male, and it’s this modern slang definition of beta male I was using. From urbandictionary.com:

    The opposite of Alpha male. In modern society an Alpha male not only requires physical prowess, but also confidence and attitude. The Beta male of modern society usually, only has one of these traits, if any. The Beta male tends to be smart, quiet and unconfrontational. If lucky, beta males can get a hot chick once in her 30′s, after she’s tired of fucking the Alpha Males, and decides to settle down with a beta male for money and stability.

    But you’re totally right that this is not the actual traditional proper usage of the term beta male, but as the new definition continues to gain traction in pop culture you’ll see it become the more popular definition of the term in coming years, especially in everyday, nonacademic circles. It also appeared in a novel by Christopher Moore and other places in pop culture.

    T.’s last blog post..Male Bonding


  50. Actually, T, the definition you quoted and the one properly used in academic circles are essentially the same.

    Except in very unique circumstances, what separates an alpha-male and other males in any animal grouping is physical superiority. Animal societal demands are not so terribly sophisticated that being the biggest/fastest/strongest/fiercest doesn’t facilitate most male-male or male-female engagements. So the alpha will be the “alpha” in the traditional sense while the beta will have the same qualities as the alpha just to an inferior degree.

    But insofar as human societies are more sophisticated and multivariate than those of animals, so too are the qualities/characteristics required of an alpha-human. Our animal evolution ensures that we still value size, strength, physical prowess but our human evolution has taught us to value passion, humor and sincerity as well as intelligence, ingenuity and confidence.
    Now it will always be true that different people will value different qualities but this doesn’t change the fact that the more dimensions you have to evaluate the less likely you are to find one person dominant in a plurality of dimensions.

    So male X is Big, strong, good looking and confident. male Y is fit, average looking, funny and intelligent. male Z is modest in appearance but wry, passionate, sincere and selectively ingenious.

    By definition there can still only be ONE “alpha male.” Perhaps in this circle of friends it’s always been male X. And perhaps these same three in some small office it is male Y. And perhaps by the time we all reach our 30s and 40s, male Y is seen as the best play. The point isn’t so much that social context determines the hierarchy but rather that in a complex human society any range of quality combos can lay claim to being an “alpha profile” (with the concession that there are some traits that always seem to be more highly valued).

    So what does this all mean? It means that our alpha males can be traditional “alpha-types” while the “beta” or “2nd best option” might not simply be a slightly lesser version of alpha but rather a profile of a completely different type. He is the smart, funny but quiet and handsome guy. This might resemble the “beta” described in your urbandictionary definition but i think that is distinct from a strict “omega” type who is completely unremarkable across every dimension.

    Smash’s last blog post..Reset


  51. This was a good post T. In some parts of this post, you were kicking true science.

    When black women go for a bad boys, however, a prison record and a gun are often be involved. I even found this to be the case when I was in college and hollering at educated black women. With white girls, though, the simple fact that a guy is black is often enough to confer ?bad boy? status and make a guy edgy.

    It is because you are the other and the bottom of the totem pole in this country that you are seen as edgy by mainstream American women.

    I think a lot of this has to do with how BM are portrayed in mainstream culture and many thugs have a lot of fast cash.

    “However there is much social stigma working against black women selecting white men today, which is that these women are seen as ?traitors? of the race if they date white men”
    Hope

    Hope let me find out you minored in African-American studies :lol:
    You truly hit the nail on the head with the above quote.

    Ian blacks from Brazil and the West Indies were slaves too, we came over on the same boats . It would be better to compare blacks from the Caribbean with Continental Africans for a better snapshot.

    AA women are stigmatized more for dating out. First by other AA women(although it is now changing) and then by black men. Even a large number of AA who date out have a VERY BIG problem with African-American women who date out. Some of them can become very violent and threatening.
    Now as far as the thug thing goes a lot of AA women will date an Italian or maybe a Greek man as they are seen as more masculine or Alpha. There is even a number of tales & running jokes in the black community about Italians being black people with white(tanned) skin.

    Finally, I do not date thugs EVER BUT I will not take a man who can not/will not protect me seriously.

    Chic Noir’s last blog post..Fashion Model Lara Stone-You better work it Girl!


  52. Chic Noir – I agree that black women are treated like race traitors for dating outside the race, but I don’t think that’s enough to keep them from doing it because black men are even more stigmatized as race traitors for going outside the race but still do it in droves anyway. I think a lot of the resistance comes from within as far as black women goes, not just external criticism.

    T.’s last blog post..Happy Belated Mother?s Day


  53. Hope let me find out you minored in African-American studies :lol:

    No Chic Noir, I did not, but I was around a lot of African Americans, Hispanics, Asians and immigrants when I was growing up. My first boyfriend was African American and gave me some insight into how his “world” works, and I did take a lot of sociology, psychology and biology courses in college. The subject of interracial relations fascinates me, and I like finding out what makes people “tick.” I also personally know of numerous interracial relationships that are “unusual” (black woman with white man, white woman with Asian man, black man with Asian woman), and they have been such great successes that I couldn’t help but wonder about them.

    I think a lot of the resistance comes from within as far as black women goes, not just external criticism.

    I think what is often ignored by explanations of mate choice is the nebulous and often random occurrence of romantic love, and the ramifications of love itself are so great that they imprint a person for life. But I am sure that there are events that predispose a person, particularly a woman, to fall in love for a certain type over another. I deliberately left the subject of slavery alone in my previous responses, but I think that the scar left behind by slavery as you mentioned is very real. A woman will simply not fall in love with a group of men whom she has deemed an “enemy” in her psyche.

    I grew up reading about the ways that Asian men traditionally mistreated Asian women, for example foot binding and preoccupation with virginity (stories of women who dabbled themselves with animal blood on the night of marriage even if they are virgins, to ensure that the man would believe her hymen broke). My mother also repeatedly told me accounts of how my father cheated on her, physically abused her and used her for her family’s money. In my own imagination I simply could not find Asian men sexually attractive after all that, despite having hard crushes on them when I was younger and more “innocent.” Though my dating history is very short, I did not become close to a single Asian man romantically since I moved to America. To this day I do not have establish close friendships with Asian males, but have them easily with Asian females, whites, African Americans, etc. I simply could not overcome my deep-seated fears despite my conscious, logical mind telling me otherwise.

    Thus it seems quite possible to me that the psychological trauma left by slavery is simply too great for African American women to overcome. Unless she grew up in unique circumstances — as is the case for a beautiful and intelligent African American lawyer I know who grew up in white-washed Wisconsin and married her high school sweetheart, a nerdy and rather short IT professional, and as well for an African lady from Kenya who married a regular Joe white American man — she will not view white men as viable mates, because of the long history which cause her to recoil in “remembered pain,” despite the fact that she herself might not have experienced any.


  54. Hope, I wonder if more Asian women have heard/lived stories like your mother’s when growing up and that is why so many of them don’t like to date Asian men or are open to dating non Asian men.

    I’ve noticed that the stories of why Asian women & black men date out are often similar.

    I came across an article once which stated that African women married white men more often than African-American women.

    Chic Noir’s last blog post..Fashion Model Lara Stone-You better work it Girl!


  55. i feel the reason why black men feel like they can date outside the race and that black women are suppossed to stay in the black race is because back in the day white men slept with women of color but when they came home they came home to white women black men we want it the same, black women with black men.one thing i noticed between me and my white friends is they dont care if a black friend of theres dates a white girl but they cant stand when a black guy they dont know does and also they dont care if black men date the white untouchables (fat ugly white girls(notice i said fat and ugly not just fat because you can always lose weight but when u ugly u ugly ) and they dont care if black men date trailer trash white girls whether there pretty or ugly) its the same with most black men they dont care if a white friends dates a black girl but they hate a stranger dating a black girl. black men dont care if white men touch black women that are untouchable.


  56. I think your right-on on your comments why blacks chicks are overwhelmingly prefer a thug. The only thing that is off is the time frame, I would think it is more like 10,000 years. Since the end of the last ice age. It would take a lot longer than just a few hundred years to weed out thug loving genes. If fact white chick and Asian chicks have it too but to a much weaker extent. All chicks love thugs and will quickly have sex with one. It is kind of a no brainier to them ,when the thugs about the freak comes out.
    I think it is the influence of city states that have something to do with it. North Africa that is ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, Southern Europe, India and China have had some form of this for at least 3000 or probably a lot more years. Women in North African verses the ones on the other side of the Sahara Desert are quite different. Your idea is not exactly PC but there is no question Black women almost universally prefer thugs over non thugs.


  57. When all the american black women disappear off the face of the earth, who are you all going to bitch about then? I find it strange this obsession with black american women like myself, and the fact that so many seem to know exactly what I want.

    I’m guessing more reserved women who are a bit geeky like I am also desire thugs as well, yes?

    I will be sure to let my mother know that a lot of men know what I truly desire. I mean it does not matter that there are black women who do not date thugs, since it is much easier to focus all of your energy on women who love thugs and then generalize.

    Such is life I guess.


  58. Nicole, I find what they are saying interesting actually. I also don’t think the “hypothesis” is set in stone, but it’s nice to speculate.

    I’m an African woman who has a life history so similar to the typical Asian American woman that it explains why I’m dating a white man. The stereotypical African father (in my culture anyway) is like the stereotypical Asian father. I can’t help but be attracted to the more “pliable” white men (but they must have money). Clearly I’m trying to avoid the domineering father figure I had, while hoping the moneyed, beta-like white man’s money can protect me from racists/thugs/criminals etc. If this were the 1900s however, I would do no such thing, as T mentioned above, money did not protect black women in America back then. Now, however a black woman getting a relatively rich white man (who by generalization and stereotyping is more beta than the “alpha” black male) whether alpha, or beta, is still able to find herself a provider and protector (his wealth and even white privilege). In Africa this same man would be an awful choice of husband, as black men control the place and have the money. The white man thus is even lower than beta, especially if he is a beta. In my country, the wildcard however, is that money protects to the point that a very rich white man with money can date one black woman after another with no problems; a poor/moderately rich white man? no.


  59. candlelight ur ignorant u would go and get a white boy cuz he got money. i feel like every race should try to marry within there race at first but if that dont work out then interracial is ok.there is a big difference n looking 4 white men and happening to date someone who is white. blacks need 2 stick ogether for the simple fact that whites outnumber by alot if every person in every minority were to marry a white person there would still be 100+million whites left but no more minoritys.i cant stand it when black men get a little success and jump and get hwite girl and i cant stand when you have black actresses who play black women that are strong in there movies but they go and date white boys in real life like rosario dawson and zoe saldona and they never date black men.


  60. Hey I was traumatized by my black father, it doesn’t take a psychiatrist to figure out that all black men represent a domineering father figure to me. Daddy issues work for all races, not just white women!


  61. good post…best theory i read on this situation and it all makes sense except for one thing… how do u explain how do u explain homesexualty using your alpha survival theory?


  62. Deion, there is a recent Italian study that has a pretty interesting theory as to the evolutionary advantage of homosexuality and why it gets passed down from generation to generation:

    http://www.newscientist.com/ch.....ained.html

    http://masculineheart.blogspot.....hyper.html

  63. Black College Girl on September 24th, 2008 at 11:53 AM

    From a standpoint of mainstream rational logic, your argument makes sense, because you completely suport your conclusion. However, all of your implicit premises are incorrect, starting from the idea that you’re taking a psychological standpoint. This is a socio-cultural situation, not a psychological one. And the idea that any of this has to do with evolution is ridiculous. Evolution is a process that takes thousands of years and has to do wih the loss of physical properties that are harmful to the survival of the animal in relation to its environment- it has nothing at all to do with personality. Also, evolution is a term that can only be applied to a genus within a species. What your argument tries to do is apply the theory of evolution within a subset of a genus- African-Americans- which is impossible.


  64. Evolution is a process that takes thousands of years and has to do wih the loss of physical properties that are harmful to the survival of the animal in relation to its environment- it has nothing at all to do with personality.

    Changes don’t always have to take that long if extreme enough conditions exist. And personality traits, if they arise due to genetic predisposition, can indeed be affected by evolution. For example, promiscuous men are favored by evolution, even though most men would call being a ladie’s man a personality trait. This personality trait usually correlates with the genetic predisposition to have a high sex drive. It is very common for many personality aspects to have a tendency to correlate with certain physical genetics. Another example, evolution has typically favored high testosterone men because they have a higher sex drive (spread their seed more), and they are more competitive and tend to be stronger and bigger than low testosterone men(therefore more likely to have the drive to compete harder against other suitors along with the physical capabilities to beat the other suitors). So the idea that evolution only selects for physical traits and not personality traits is simply untrue, it’s not always easy to separate a physical traits from the behavioral traits that tend to accompany them.

  65. young feminist of color on December 18th, 2008 at 3:53 PM

    Definitely not. If the stigma for black women dating and marrying out is so low, why aren’t the numbers higher? Why aren’t they equal to the number for men dating and marrying out? Black women on college campuses, high schools, and adults are heavily warned against dating esp white men or viewing them as husband potential. Black men want the pool of women available to them to remain in their favor.


  66. So the bunch of gangsta youths who tried to start a bunch of trouble with this white boy outside of the mall– I wonder where they stand on the “masculine” versus “feminine” spectrum with respect to me. All I do is ride by them on my bike and mofo #1 opens his face to talk some trash, and I made the mistake of standing up to his punk ass by yelling, “Daaaaaaaaaaaaaag, boooo!” mocking his arrogance and pride in his hanging-down-to-his-ass baggy pants and his cool street thug lingo. Well, what would you expect any time any wimpy white guy like myself that’s had about as much of this shit as he can take finally finally snaps?

    So I have a bunch of tough little thugs with thug pride chasing me. I know they must be tough, since they have strength in numbers over me. For their reaction, I might have well have yelled epithets one million times, for their reaction was the same. They heard exactly what they wanted to hear. They used me to affirm their view of the world, that a little bitch white boy supposedly had one foot up their ass already, and that I was the cause of their problems. Fact of the matter is, I didn’t know these people or care to know them, and why would I, if they’re the kind of people who start shit with complete strangers?

    I’m convinced that in America there are whole generations of kids, white and black, across the demographic spectrum, who went through life without an ass-whippin’ to tell them right from wrong, or that there will be consequences of you act like a fuckin’ heathen. So these kids end up in jail. How will it help? They get pride from being in jail. They get treated like celebrities, as if being in said jail were a rite of passage.

    Won’t any of you stand up to this bullshit next time you witness it, please?


  67. a lot of these thugs be gay black women or bisexual. don’t be deceived.


  68. the thing about woman testung men is that :

    - the testing should be indirect, the guy should’nt relize he’s being tested.

    - the guy that pass these test, if they relized they were being tested,would’nt care about passing them.
    these guys could care less if the girl walk out of their lives,
    because they have multiple woman who what them.

    - these guys set the frame that their the prize not the woman,
    so the woman ends up tryin to get him.


  69. Tupac was the direct opposite from Malcom X. Tupac said he wanted to be a thug because thats what white america wanted him to be Malcom X on the other hand wanted to be the opposite of what white America wanted expected him to be and act. they wanted him to be a thug so he chose no to be a thug. this goes far back to slavery white men have always wanted black men to act a certain way and speak a certain way so they would aways be lower class than they are take for instance school white and asian kids are tort from a early age that school is cool and why they should stay in school but black kids with all the hip hop in their culture teaches them that school is for nerds and the more nerdy you are the less people will like you, not knowing that lack of a education and living off the streets as Tupac did would get them in danger such as gang banging, drug dealing, murdered, etc. so Tupac was wrong for starting that whole thug mentality trend because its gone too far, there are many lives lost to foolishness because young kids are growing up to be thugs in the black communities. theirs to much killing, drug trafficing, prostition on the streets and its killing our race thats just what many white people that are racist want and that is to see the downfall of the black race, theirs a war going on today and that is to get as many black men behind bars as possible so they can come out gay or even aids infected. the same thugs come out of prison and infect black women with aids by secretly having sex with other men. the justice system is out to destroy the black race.

  70. NoneThuggishBlackMan on October 31st, 2009 at 6:55 PM

    Tupac was the direct opposite of Malcom X. Tupac said he wanted to be a thug because thats what white america wanted him to be. Malcom X on the other hand wanted to be the opposite of what white America wanted and expected him to act like and be. white america wanted him to be a thug so he chose not to be a thug. this goes far back to slavery white men have always wanted black men to act a certain way and speak a certain way so blacks would aways be lower class citizens. take for instance school, white and asian kids are told from a early age that school is cool and why they should stay in school but black kids with all the hip hop in their culture are told that that school is for nerds and the more nerdy you are the less people will like you, not knowing that lack of a education leads to living off the streets the same as Tupac did which would get them in deeper trouble such as gang banging, drug dealing, murdered, etc. so Tupac was wrong for starting that whole thug mentality trend because its gone too far, there are many lives lost to being foolish. there young kids growing up to be thugs in the black communities that grow up killing, drug trafficing, and pimping out black sistas on the streets and its killing our race thats just what many racist white people want, that is to see the downfall of the black race, theirs a war going on today and that is to get as many black men behind bars as possible black want to be thugs can come out gay or even with a aids infection. the same thugs come out of prison and infect black women with all the aids by secretly having sex with other men. the justice system is out to destroy the black race. the problem dosn’t start in the household, it takes an entire village to raise our black youths in to integrated, honest, indevidual leaders that can reshape steriotypes for us all. racism still exist, many things are hidden under the rug. we must save our youth from all the slander thats destroying our race and raise them to seek our their talents what ever that maybe and be the best indevidual leaders they can be. BLACK POWER is empowering our race


  71. Then there are the life-size Brad dolls such as myself-from 1970-’72,Brad was Barbie’s boyfriend Ken’s handsome black buddy until Mattel Toys,the three dolls’ innovator and manu-
    facturer,discontinued Brad-who resemble Hollywood leading men but are invisible because other blacks deem us “sell-outs” for out erudition,telegenic appearance and often,love of blondes.
    In my case,I’m 56,said to look 15-20 years younger,and at a muscular,beefy 5-9,224 lb.,also
    said by a lot of ladies to resemble a handsome black cowboy.(With my build,a steer wrestler or “bull-dogger,”gals!)And I LOVE buxom blondes,bra size,34D-44D,25-39,5-3,108 lb.-5-8,154 lb.,25-39!!!!


  72. the bottom line is that no one finds real black women attractive (no matter who their ancestors are, tan and yellow skinned people do not count as black: that left them, a LONG time ago). it is not a very nice fact, but it is a fact nonetheless. at this point i don’t know Who i am going to marry now. Definitely not anyone outside of my race because white and asian me are ugly racists, and for as long as i have been trying to stick up for my black men, they have been giving me NO REASON WHATSOEVER to defend them. what a mess.


  73. and by the way, shame on all you black men who lack so much pride that you would, like the dog returning to lick his vomit, turn around and love these people who have oppressed your people for centuries, nearly jim crowed you out of existence, and ceven come up with some “colorful,” derogatory slurs in reference to your race. wake up: it is not merely black man against white man, it is black PEOPLE against white PEOPLE! balck men, when you hold these different races in such high regard, putting down black women, you only prove what white people say: “See, I told you we’s better than them n******, they even think so themselves!”

  74. Young Black Woman on December 20th, 2009 at 1:30 AM

    Wow, I am amazed! I was looking for answers and found them here. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Always nice to hear some information from research. Author, what books did you read that had some of this information or is this just an opinion? Share please…


  75. nyjy,if you think the-probably fat,fugly-like of you is going to guilt me out of dating buxom blondes,YOU’VE GOT ANOTHER THINK COMING,as U.K. heavy metal band Judas Priest recorded years
    ago.Also,you blacker-than-thou types overlook today’s enslavement of Africans,Ethiopians in
    particular,by the Muslim “janjaweed.”Not even the phony “black leaders” such as Jackson,Sharp-
    ton,Farra-Con-Man(who supported homophobic killing and despotic rule in Muslim African countries)will dare mention it,as they likely receive bribes from the kleptocrats who misrules
    their countries(Zimbabwe’s Mugabe being the prime example.)
    So instead of talking about “white racism” as an excuse for blasting classically handsome black lads such as myself for dating buxom blondes,lose half your gigantic a** and ALL of your
    b***hy attutude,and PERHAPS we boys will grant you a second look.(At lot of us won’t give you the FIRST GLANCE!!!!)


  76. OH HELL YEAH…

    You know how these sistas just love a man who

    will smack the shit outta of em, and has like 5 different baby mamas, and a criminal record and get a good job to take care of em….

    They stupid thats why


  77. Thanks for this article. Was a little depressed at first but now I can date outside my race without looking back. It sucks that females have to rely on the strength of a man.


  78. http://therawness.com/why-blac.....ike-thugs/ hhmmmm wats your thoughts?


  79. RT @LeMontCalhoun: http://therawness.com/why-blac.....ike-thugs/ hhmmmm wats your thoughts?


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  81. I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU. EVEN THOUGH I DONT WANT TO STEREOTYPE I THINK THESE WOMEN LOOK DOWN ON A NICE GUY AS A PATSY.THERE ARE MANY GOOD LOOKING BLACK WOMEN AS OTHER WOMEN BUT THEIR BRAIN MENTALITY IS FOR THE MOST PART NOT VERY SOPHISTICATED.MANY WOMEN ARE BEAUTIFUL BUT STUPID,SPOILED,AND SOUR. YOU HAVE HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD.

  82. foreignblackwoman on April 30th, 2010 at 10:11 PM

    I noticed the writer made the difference between American Blacks and foreign Blacks. I have a problem with the U.S. lumping everyone together based on color etc.. and not culture differences.
    I think most American Blacks have no culture,so they are kind of lost.
    It’s the same way they assumed that they are the voice of Black people all ove the world.It’s all how they assumed their culture is the representation of Blacks all over.
    It’s the same way they referred to themselves as African-American but hate everything that represent African,culture.The same way they think dark skinned, West African features are ugly. It’s also how they assumed Africa is a country where everyone are the same robots. They equal ignorance to Black culture and get mad when foreign Blacks don’t agreed with their ignorance.
    The same way they will tell a foreign Black if it wasn’t over them,minorities couldn’t be in the U.S. They seem not to understand that it was a small Caribbean country who fought against slavery,France and won their Independence. Well thanks to that Independence other slaves countries followed to fight for freedom.

    Anyway a there’s a joke amongst foreign Blacks

    Why are American Blacks so stupid/Ignorant?

    Re: They came from the dumbest/weakest tribe out of Africa.


  83. Thug,Aways want a lighter skin woman

  84. CowboyJohn-Brad on May 15th, 2010 at 8:15 AM

    I want Melanie Brown or Gabrielle Union!!!!


  85. when trying to characterize a thug, divergences unquestionably comes into existence between the generations. The elder of the group acquaints thugs with danger or trouble. Whereas, the other half relates them to a combatant or someone who, because of some calamity in their past, engaes in unlawful activities to support their responsibilities. the elders have contempt and apprehension for their behavior. On the other hand, the younger generation favors their demeanor.
    the true definition of a thug is a person who is involved in criminal acts. There’s no getting around that. Drug dealers are thugs, hence, drug dealers are criminals. they are not exonerated from this category because of some mishap that occured in their lives, preventing them from accomplishing their once soguht out great endeavors. They are not heroes, soldiers, nor anyone who should be admired. What they are, are polluntants!… This is an awesome book, Thugs and Why Women Should Run From Them…website..pangpane.com


  86. Back during the Slave days, the bad Negro was looked up to for going against the grain. This is the origin of the Social attraction for Pimps and Criminal negroes in the negroid community. The need for protection is the Biological component of attraction.


  87. Just for your information I heard some anoynimity that said some white girls did not like black man in America. But they just love the black dicks. I really do not understand why the love the dick but they did not love the owner. It is funy but really happened in American society until now. The said that if in America white girls married with black man you will chase out from their parents or the parent will not recognize you anymore.

    It seems like humiliation and big discrimination betwen the culture of black and white but Mister Obama said in his speech that there is no White America, No Black America, No Latin America just one one United State of America.

    I hope that while girls and black boys will be working together to build a stronger America in the future because we “Stand for something” and leave for nothing


  88. Can somebody look out? I want to be an alpha dog, yet all my life
    I was a good guy. I stayed in school, graduated with a Master’s degree, and never broke the law. Please Lord help me out, because I’ve have zero girlfriends in my life. I don’t want to go on with my problems because just typing about it would bring you good folks down. For example, what sports should I get into? What tv shows should I see?, who is my role model?

    Just another quick comment here. Being a top dog in prison isn’t necessarily the one all true thing to being a bad boy. When I was in
    brooklyn Tech H.S. I single handily forces the entire student body
    to start attending classes because I was “a bad boy in academics”. I was determined to get into Columbia University (never made it though), and people started to compete against me academically.

  89. RideBlackCowboyBrett1953 on May 19th, 2011 at 11:19 AM

    As a life-size Brett doll-in my case,boyishly handsome,57-year-old-
    58 July 6-black Canadian lad with a genius level IQ-147-165-AND who,instead of traditional “black re-creating-R&B/soul,Gospel,hip-hop/
    (c)rap,blues,etc.,and dress-I’m into heavy metal,garage rock,Country
    music,dancing-EXCEPT LINE DANCING!!!-rodeo-non-existent around my Wind-
    sor,Ont.,Can., birth-place and home-town,and often don casual,even sometimes cowboy clothes,I’ve been hit on REPEATEDLY (and still am today)by great-looking white women,BUT ALMOST NEVER BY BLACK WOMEN,which suggests to me that my looks,erudition,clothes and life-style mark me as “insufficiently black and/or thuggish” by most black women.


  90. daddy issues.. simple as that. Not raised properly, or else theyd want a man like their father.


  91. was reffering to white girls going for homeys


  92. Most women, especially here in America, suffer from psychiatric issues. This is the reason why most men are marrying foreign brides. I’m contemplating the same.


  93. Thing is…thugs are sexy…simple as that!

  94. RideBlackCowboyBrett1953 on August 8th, 2011 at 9:17 AM

    Yeah,Elaine,thugs ARE sexy.Especially when your gangsta boyfriend is beating your fat a**,RIGHT????