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The Myth of Female Maturity, Pt. 3: Emotional Masturbation

GirlsNightOutPictures026 (1)

[NOTE: This post has been slightly edited from the version that debuted yesterday.]

The previous installments of this series were surprisingly controversial, but I got bogged down with real-world stuff and couldn’t follow up as quickly as I would have liked and unfortunately lost a lot of momentum.

One of the issues I wanted to talk about regarding maturity is which gender is more in touch with their emotions in a mature connected way. Many of the commenters who disagreed with my assertion that modern, Westernized women are actually less mature than men kept using the topic of emotions to prove their point. Dissenters kept repeating that women are far more likely to talk about their emotions and listen to the emotional problems of others than men are. Mark Manson kept mentioning studies that proved how men are much more reserved with their emotions, keep them bottled in, and are terrible at talking about them with other men.

However, such studies are never persuasive to me because I don’t accept the premises they start with when judging emotional maturity. Instead I prefer to ask, is what the average American woman displaying here truly a mature manifestation of emotion, or actually something else, a different form of immaturity?
Or to put it another way, I believe it’s a quality versus quantity issue. Sure women may deal with far more emotions, but sheer quantity doesn’t prove that the quality of these emotional interactions is very deep, connected, or productive.

To utilize a comparison, physical masturbation is no substitute for sexual intercourse that has a deep, emotional connection, fueled by genuine mutual empathy. And I doubt anyone would argue differently. Masturbation is by definition a self-centered act. However, there are forms of masturbation that masquerade as intercourse. Immature, self-centered people, even when they have sex with other people, are still engaging in masturbation. They’re just masturbating with other people’s bodies.

This is an important distinction to understand. Sometimes it gets boring to just masturbate by yourself. So you masturbate using someone else’s body instead of your hand. “Excuse me, can I just borrow your body for a bit?” The other person’s job is to be an extension of your hand, to be an extension of your fantasies, to be an audience, to provide validation. If you worry about the other person’s pleasure, it’s only because you know pleasuring the other person helps boost your ego and image and also because you understand a bit of quid pro quo is necessary. You have to allow the other person to masturbate with your body a little in order to get reciprocation. The sex is a mutual masturbation society where you’re using each other’s bodies.

And of course since it’s not real, mutually connected, empathetic sex, it can be like empty calories. It doesn’t satisfy for long or fill deeper needs. This is why sex addicts can never get enough sex, are rarely satisfied once it’s over, are filled with shame and guilt afterwards, and are soon looking for their next fix. They’re expecting masturbation to fill the need that real lovemaking does and are invariably disappointed each time. Now this is not an indictment against masturbation, be it solo masturbation or masturbation with another’s body, as long as you understand what it is. To continue the empty calories analogy, empty calories are okay as long as they aren’t the staple of your diet and you are aware of what they are and don’t actually expect health and nourishment from them. It’s when you expect empty calories to fill the needs that healthy, staple foods fill that you run into problems.

In a way the disappointment is even worse with mutual masturbation than with regular solo masturbation, because at least with solo masturbation you’re never under any illusions about what you’re doing. No matter how you close your eyes and fantasize, what you’re watching or reading, or who you’re on the phone with, you’re always fully aware that you’re masturbating and have no expectations that you’re going to experience a soulful mutual connection with another human being.

With mutual masturbation pairings, many times people are too immature to realize that all they’re doing is just masturbating with other people’s bodies rather than engaging in real, bonding sexual connection. So when they feel that same void and lack of fulfillment afterward as the solo masturbator, unlike the solo masturbator they can’t understand why they feel this way, since in their minds they were doing the opposite of masturbating.

Masturbating, whether alone or with another person’s body, is a more immature act than making love with another person in a connected, loving way, which requires a certain amount of selflessness and empathy in the sexual act to pull off, so an immature person engaged in sex will always end up masturbating, regardless of whether they’re having sex alone or with another person.

To bring this back around to women and maturity, the average, modern American woman rarely engages in true emotional intercourse, they are primarily emotional masturbators. Guys, how many times have y0u gone on a first date with a woman or just met a woman and she proceed to projectile vomit all types of emotional baggage on you and try to turn you into her therapist on the spot? And there’s no connection there. And you often find out they’ve spewed the same sob story on a dozen people that day indiscriminately, and that you’re not hearing it because there’s anything special about you. Whatever self-absorbed emotional dilemmas she’s projectile vomiting at you, these are the same  dramas and non-crises that she’s cycling through her head nonstop when alone. Now that she has someone with her to be an audience, she gets to emotionally masturbate with someone else’s brain instead of just her own, just like the solo physical masturbator may primarily masturbate alone but keeps biding time until the next opportunity comes to physically masturbate with another person’s body instead, which he finds far more preferable.

Sometimes the smarter emotional masturbators realize that people get tired of being an audience to their emotional masturbation, so they will allow and even encourage the other person to emotionally masturbate too. They will both now be emotionally masturbating with each other’s minds, just like the two people in a sexual tryst are both physically masturbating with each other’s bodies, but once all the energy dies down, both pairs of mutual masturbators will feel more drained and unconnected than before they began, like two people who wake up together after a binge.

There is a phenomenon known as circle jerking, which Wikipedia describes as

a sexual practice in which a group of men or boys form a circle and masturbate themselves or each other…Circle jerks are typically an experience of adolescents, teenagers, and college students. Often, they feature a competitive element, with the “winner” being the participant able to ejaculate first, last, or farthest depending on the pre-established rules.

When it comes to emotional equivalent, a good example is girl’s night out, which can be seen as an emotional circle jerk of sorts, as seen in this Onion article Although the article is obviously fictional and intended for humor, there is a lot of truth in it. Reread the Wikipedia description excerpted above and compare to the phenomenon described in the article and see how many parallels you can spot. How much genuine emotional connection and empathy do you really believe occurred in the girl’s night out that was described in that article? And do you think it was significantly more than the emotional connection experienced in an average guy’s night out binge drinking? I’d argue that the emotional expression in both cases is superficial and largely not genuine or deep.

Saying that modern Western women are more mature than men because they express their emotions so much more freely is not a good analysis unless you look at how they’re actually expressing their emotions. Is it in a mature, mutually connected, empathetic way or in a self-centered, indulgent way that is mostly a one-way transaction? It’s the equivalent of saying that the average American man is more sexually mature than the average American woman because he watches so much porn, and spends so much time thinking, talking about, pursuing, or engaging in sex.

As I’ve said repeatedly in this blog, there are three faulty, immature coping mechanisms: avoidance, surrender, and overcompensation. Immature men avoid their emotions, or overcompensate against them. The modern Western woman who is wallowing in emotional dilemmas in her head and online whenever alone, or blabbing about her emotions nonstop whenever she has an audience, is constantly surrendering to her emotional states, and has a total inability to master them, not unlike many children. That’s why the entertainment she’s so attracted to is hardcore emotional pornography, much like the sex addict is drawn to sexual pornography. The main difference is that the modern American woman has gotten society to view her self-indulgent addiction as a sign of strength.

50 Responses to “The Myth of Female Maturity, Pt. 3: Emotional Masturbation”

  1. I feel like you’re making a bit of a straw man argument here, by equating all Western female emotional sharing with self-absorbed emotional vomit. I’m sure people could argue that even when it comes to healthier, more mutual, more mature types of emotional expression, women are better about it than men.

    On a larger level though, as I was reading the article I didn’t feel like you were describing anything that couldn’t be said to apply to all people equally, not just women. There are men who will be needy and overshare on a first date. There are men who will engage emotionally with other people in a masturbatory way, and so on.

  2. Seriously, who is more likely to turn the other party into a therapist on a first date Kevin? Also, would the Onion parody have worked if the females were changed to males?

    Sure there are exceptions. There are always exceptions. That’s pretty much a given.

  3. I understand your stance on the matter, but there’s a phrase that i didn’t fully get. “Masturbating is an immature act”. Please elaborate…

  4. There’s no such thing as mature emotions, emotions by their very nature are instinctual

    Emotions are rationalisations of biological biochemistry

    Emotions are primal making women feral as a result

    An emphasis on uncontrolled emotions makes women feral

    You can’t ascribe maturity to women, as emotions are by their nature immature

    A result of the primate state of emotions

    In short women are immature as they’re main cognisant is immature by nature

    In short Kevin doesn’t have a clue what he’s talking about

  5. I dunno. I just feel like it would be just as easy to come up with a bunch of examples of men inappropriately spilling their guts on the first date as well. I’ve known plenty of women who’ve complained about bad first dates where needy guys talked too much about exes, drug problems, mental health issues, troubled childhoods, etc.

  6. I agree with T, I can’t see why anyone would disagree.

    First of all, this word is key:

    “Is what the AVERAGE American woman displaying here truly a mature manifestation of emotion, or actually something else, a different form of immaturity?”

    Not every, not all, but average. AVERAGE.

    There’s always some guy who thinks when a group is stereotyped, all members of the group must display the characteristics of the stereotype. So then they think of anecdotes that “disprove” the stereotype(they only need one to disprove the “all” part), but actually completely miss the point. Kevin, you’re that guy.

  7. Yeah, why is masturbation decidedly an “immature act”? And why does a multiple partner sex always have to be “mutual masturbation”? And what about bisexual, gay or lesbian people, are they generally less mature than “men” as well? Is this a contest? Did you just “win” something? If so, good for you.

  8. One of the reasons I don`t buy the claim of women’s emotional maturity because of their sharing of emotions etc. and their willingness to talk about their feelings etc. is that they are not honest at all, especially when talking with men in their lives. Almost no woman that has been to couples counseling has been anywhere near honest about what is the real problem. Women in couples counseling usually spend their time arguing that they want more beta more beta and even more beta. Which is nonsense. The reality is that in couples counseling most men will actually say what is true for them while most women will just ramble on with rationalizations about what is wrong that are totally disconnected from what really is the problem. Hence the abysmal results of couples counseling and the great results of Athol Kay. Is there anything more emotionally immature than dragging your spuse to couples counseling to share your feelings and spend six months doing it pretending to share your feelings and pretend to tell what the real problem is yet never even touching on the real issue?

  9. I didn’t articulate myself properly, but I wasn’t trying to disprove an ‘obviously true’ statement by quoting a handful of exceptions. I was questioning the starting premise itself, that “Obviously women are like this, and more likely to spew emotional vomit on a first date”

    I was saying I didn’t see it as totally unrealistic that both genders show this behavior about equally on the ground. Just when women do it it plays into an existing stereotype, when guys do it it’s not as noticed.

  10. I’m a woman and I have very few female friends because of the nature of the average woman as depicted in the article. When I first started reading, I began to get offended because as most women, I tend to get caught up in my emotions and sometimes bottle them up until they explode. I don’t like acting this way but I’ve grown up living as if emotions were terrible things to have – that they should be shut out – and that’s what I thought this article was condoning.

    However, after reading the Onion article, T’s stance made a lot more sense. I’ve always laughed at “Girls Nights” because it’s typically just an excuse to bitch excessively. Only you’re bitching to a group of women who don’t really genuinely care about your issues and instead of giving constructive feedback, just butter you up with insincere bullshit about how you’re “too good for that.” Women RARELY tell other women that they were in the wrong in their handling of a situation, even if that is obviously the case. Guys seem to be better at being honest with each other, women on the other hand don’t like honesty. I’ll admit, I’ve been on the giving and receiving end of these conversations and it really is like masturbation. It never really makes you feel closer to that person, nor does it make you feel like a genuinely great person for attempting to boost their self-esteem because most of the time, you’re just repeating what you’ve heard other women say to each other. It’s a shame but this seems to be the approach to keeping women as friends, which is why I now have few.

    Don’t get me wrong, not ALL women are like this. There are a few good ladies in my life who I can trust for honest feedback, but even they tend to lean toward the validation approach. However they aren’t “typical” women in most regards and I know and trust them on a deeper level and that feeling of safety within the friendship is reciprocated. That’s a feeling that in my opinion, is hard to achieve with lots of people, which is why having intimate conversations with a group of girls can be really unsatisfying… There’s a good chance they don’t ALL have your best interests at heart.

  11. Self pleasure is an immature act because it cannot lead to procreation. All animals on Earth, at maturity, seek to reproduce with a member of their own species of the opposite sex. It is the immature animals that engage in mockery of this behavior. So yes, even technically, self pleasure is an immature act. Please don’t confuse the words “immature act” to mean that it is somehow wrong. Immature behavior is acceptable given certain circumstances.

    I would also agree that the average woman spouts far more emotional vomit than the average man. I don’t think OP had good examples, but in general I get far more verbage/stories from women about emotionally difficult situations they faced recently than I do from men. These stories are not often presented in a fashion in which a reasonable reply can be given, often it is not expected. In fact, you can see evidence of this in popular culture. What are men portrayed as in terms of listeners when their girlfriend/wife is around? They’re portrayed as non-listening-yes-men, “uh huh, yeah, uh huh, of course, yes dear.” And why do men do this? Because they know that if they try and solve their woman’s problems with thoughtful replies they are more likely to upset the woman because they didn’t let her finish. The goal of the average woman when they come home to tell their man about their day is not emotional discourse, it is not to work through a problem, it is raw emotional garbage dumped on the man to make the woman feel better. The act of verbalizing it with a trusted person is what she is after, nothing else. How is this a mature expression of emotion if very little thought goes into what she is saying, and she expects no reply?

  12. I’ve actually revised the article. I wrote it very quickly and didn’t like some of the comparisons I made upon rereading today. First, I meant that masturbation requires less maturity than connected, emotional intercourse, because all you have to do is worry about your own needs and fulfill your own fantasy. Truly connected sex requires you to balance your needs with another person’s needs, make sacrifices when necessary, assert boundaries when necessary, fight for you own needs when necessary, and in general balance selfishness with selflessness, self-gratification with self-sacrifice, etc. So basically, it should be “masturbation is LESS mature” rather than just saying “masturbation is immature.” I hope the rewrite makes that clearer.

    Also, when I said masturbation is less mature that doesn’t mean I think it’s wrong.

    Next, I think the orgy analogy quite frankly sucked in retrospect. I replaced it with the circle jerk analogy which I think works far better.

  13. “Women RARELY tell other women that they were in the wrong in their handling of a situation, even if that is obviously the case. Guys seem to be better at being honest with each other, women on the other hand don’t like honesty”

    This is very true and yet another reason I disagree that womens sharing of emotions is much of a sign of maturity. They have far to little ability to take honest feedback about what they share. IME they are somewhat better able to accept honest feedback from men, their female friends are expected to validate them 100%, but fundamentally women struggle with honest feedback from anyone. Which is why the sharing of emotion is very often just about fishing for a form of validation that is very immature. Women struggle deeply with separating wether or not someone agrees with whatever their opinion is and wether or not someone is critical of a certain action they have taken and the question of wether that person is a friend and an ally to them. Men generally are can handle very well to be criticised by their friends and to have friends disagree, even vehemently, with their opinions without taking it personally and without reevaluating the friendship. Women tend to demand that people close to them both agree with their opinions and with their actions and if they don`t then they are (almost) a foe. In order to give women constructive criticism or disagree with their opinions one almost has to wrap what one says up in so much sugar it is almost like when one disagrees with or criticises a child.

    I think women struggle with interperating things in general as aplying to them globaly, being about the whole of their person. And thei view relationships very black and white. And these are signs of immaturity.

    All this said, I think female and male maturity should be measured somewhat differently because the genders usually are so diffrent. It is more about how you learn to deal with this aspect of being female than eradicating it perhaps.

  14. If all of this is true, then what are men supposed to do for a mature emotional connection? In your various reader letters you stated that men should solve their own emotional problems first and then deal with non-damaged women. How does one determine if a woman is non-damaged? It just seems like you went from arguing men should look for healthy, mature women to arguing there aren’t any in western civilization.

  15. From what I’ve been reading, it seems modern American women on average seem to operate more on a shame based identity than men. Their actions consist more of second order operations that first order ones.

    -Shopping(I’ll never understand this, but its done purely for aesthetics).
    -Careerism(This one pisses me off, its done more for the sake of showing the world a certain identity rather than for a salary).
    -Not finding a “good man”(When a woman says this, she probably doesn’t deserve one and is looking for some guy to fit her ridiculous list of qualities).
    -Arguing for the sake of winning rather than to see who has the most correct view of reality
    -Like T said, emotional masturbation than emotional intercourse.
    -Inability to accept responsibility and relying on rationalization to avoid reality(the infamous Hamster).
    -Holding grudges rather than getting over them(I’m sure everyone here knows about the cruel things a woman does to a man in divorce proceedings).

    I could go on and on. These are just some of the major things I can think of that I’m sure is typical of your average modern American woman.

    Of course men on average have their vices too, but its just simply not to the same extent as women.

    By the way, Kevin, I reread your comments to see if I misunderstood something. From what I understand, your saying that whatever T is saying can also be applied to all people equally. If someone paid more attention, they would find that many cases of men doing the same, enough for the stereotypes to fall apart even.

    I have to disagree, across the board there’s a tendency for a women to operate more on a shame based mindset than men.


    If you look at Michelle Langleys research you will find she describes a lot about what I said about womens emotional dishonesty, emotional immaturity, vindictiveness, lack of ability to take responsibility in a relationship and huge difficulty in answering honestly what they feel and think, even after long stretches of marital counseling.

  17. Thought provoking article Ricky, you really know how to test a man’s point of view. Certainly more praise has been given to women and their so called social skills. Since when does Gossiping, rambling or venting qualify as meaningful conversation.

  18. That makes it much clearer. Indeed, you don’t have to worry about the feelings of other people when you masturbate, hence the act is less mature.

  19. Yes MSP, that was poor phrasing on my part and I appreciate you and the others who pointed it out to me. Good constructive criticism guys.

  20. I came to this site a while back following a link from Mark Manson’s blog, and though it is more liberal and gender neutral, I really loved the series on narcissism and reader letter, but this one about maturity pushes my buttons, and not only cause I’m a woman and an obvious adversary in this discussion, nor cause I’m not from the States but from Eastern Europe, and here we might have significantly different context for the same discussion, but that the basic meaning of the term “maturity” seems to not have been established, and the discussion is bouncing all over the place. I think that maturity is largely contextual to how individual perceives and interacts with his/hers surroundings and juggles the interchange of internal and external values so that they learn about and stay true to themselves and also the outside world and fulfill their life purpose in a way that causes the least amount of suffering and maximizes benefit. In such a scenario, a man who habitually masturbates so he wouldn’t break his previous commitments to church/family/dead spouse, such that he values more than having intercourse, would be very mature. A longstanding kapo in Auschwitz who takes favorable position among prisoners, although maybe very selfish, as well. You can be very mature and very ruthless at the same time. Suppressing the emotions, executing what you need to, being effective, maximizing profit. It’s very contextual and personal. It’s not just about a behavior. It’s about what someone is putting out on the table or taking away from it. It’s about what they are suppressing so they wouldn’t hurt someone else. Empathy. It’s a feeling.

    And if it’s just about intellectual meaning, decode this: “Here are some women validating each other, they’re so retarded, and here we’re so awesome and intelligent, gimme high-five”

  21. I’m rambling a bit here :)
    I just don’t think the whole maturity thing is definable in a way you are trying to do…

  22. Ana, as usual you make great points. And I’m glad you’re sticking around and digging into the debate. I’m hoping to address some of your points in later articles.

    But for now, here is some food for thought. A few weeks ago a study hit the mainstream news that claimed that men only catch up to women in terms of maturity at the age of 43:

    This study was printed all over the mainstream media and was largely accepted without question. Some guys in online comments sections protested, but for the most part it was not treated as especially controversial. No one went through all these analyses of what the word “maturity” actually means as they have in response to my articles.

    Also, consider this point: for as long as I can remember, conventional wisdom has been that girls mature faster than boys. Everyone always says it, and it’s treated as an uncontroversial truth. Yet why is it that for the decades if not centuries that this has been treated as a truism, we haven’t been subjected to long, philosophical debates about how to define maturity and whether we can get everyone participating in the debate to agree to what it means? It seems that the term maturity only becomes so nebulous and undefinable when women are receiving negative judgments about THEIR maturity. Whenever a truism or an article is describing how immature men are, suddenly everyone in the room seems to have no trouble understanding the meaning of the word maturity.

    In all the years I’ve heard the phrase “girls mature faster than boys,” I have heard little to no debate from men or women on how to define maturity and I’ve never heard the claim that maturity may be undefinable. Yet when I made the claim “yes, girls mature faster than boys, but seem to peak in maturity earlier,” suddenly the whole endeavor of comparing maturity is wrong.

    Why is that? And it’s not just you, plenty of people from both genders switched to this new tack.


    And if it’s just about intellectual meaning, decode this: “Here are some women validating each other, they’re so retarded, and here we’re so awesome and intelligent, gimme high-five”

    This is a very valid point. Unfortunately some commenters in past installments have taken more of a cheerleader stance, and I actually am not out to say women suck and men rock, or make it an us vs. them. The point of this series and this blog in general is to point out unquestioned premises and unexamined beliefs. One of the biggest unexamined beliefs in our society is that women are naturally more mature than men at every stage of their lives. Many things they do are automatically given a more favorable interpretation than equivalent things men do.

    I think the reason why so many men have trouble standing up to women and have trouble not idealizing them and putting them on pedestals and have so much trouble setting boundaries and calling them on the carpet on bad behavior is because of these unexamined beliefs about how naturally more mature and enlightened women are, when in truth they’re as messed up as men, if not often more messed up depending on how much of a princess mindset they were raised with, something that’s becoming more and more common in America today.

    But I think even women would benefit if more men realized this. The biggest advice request I get from female readers is women who are upset that their guys are “too nice” and take too much of their crap. They’re too eager to please, to quick to be deferential, too slow to enforce boundaries or punish bad behavior, and too quick to forgive. I keep hearing complaints about “where have all the real men gone in America?” But the honest truth is, the type of guys who will lead a relationship strongly, who is unafraid to take charge and make decisions, who sets strong boundaries and punishes bad behavior, is the guy who doesn’t just assume women have some superior emotional maturity by default, which is the mindset most guys now have.

    Again, I’m not saying all women are immature, and that you should treat all women as being immature even if they clearly are mature and responsible. I’m just saying that you can’t ASSUME a woman is more mature on average just because she’s a woman, because on average, especially in America today with the rising entitled princess mindset, that’s becoming less and less the case. A woman has to PROVE to you she’s mature, and you have to be able to recognize when she isn’t.

  23. OK, that article you posted is worse than the Onion!

    And I feel a bit of a disdain for “nice guys” as well, please do resort to anything to get them to come around and become all dominant and manly :)

    Nice to have you back T.

  24. Ana, since you are from Eastern Europe you do not have first hand access to the modern western princess (the modern american princess being its own extra special kind) the same way we do. Eastern European women are way more mature than Western European ones and especially American ones. They also lack the underlying hostility towards men and the deep distrust of men and the desire to put down men that is often found in western women. I have found spending time with women from Eastern Europe and Asia and Latin America to be a relief because these things are not there. It was a surprising relief when I discovered this. Before I was not aware of the phenomenon but the contrast between the women made it clear.

    For evidence read this thread where a feminist describes the negative impact her reading of feminist theory had on her relationship with men and note the many other feminist women in the comment field who admit to the same.

  25. T, I am pasting in a comment I made on another blog because I think it sheds some useful light on the question of mens expression of emotion, their need and lack of need to do so and some other ways the emotional and mental life of men is misunderstood in todays society, especially by feminists. If you feel it does not fit the discussion as well as I do, feel free to not publish it and I will rewrite something about the issue of stoicism and expression of emotion more specifically:

    In another thread she called conventional masculinity ass hatery. Going into detail she mentioned things such as being competetive, stoic, dominant, aggressive and strong as toxic masculinity and ass-hatery or something like that. The problem is all those are normal traits in a person with failry high testosterone levels. I am like that to a large degree although I have other traits as well. She and most feminist completely fail to understand such traits in a reasonable way.

    Aggressive drive is interperated as anger motivated or ill intent. Which it most certainly is not. I use aggressive drive when I want to achieve something and when I focus. I use it when I spar in martial arts. And when I use it like that trying to knock out a friend I am sparing with I have no ill feelings towards him I only wish him well. This aggressive drive, if you see it as immoral, gets not turned of but turned inward where it becomes depression and self loathing and anger towards oneself. It tends to reassert itself as passive aggressiveness and I belive is largely responsible for the snarkiness of feminist men. Once it does boil over and start turning itself outward again THEN it has ill intent.

    Being stoic is also a positive masculine trait. Feminists think this means repressing emotions but it does not. It means being able to remain calm and composed AT THE SAME TIME as you are experiencing strong emotion. It means having a still center within a storm. It is related to the quality of an impartial observer that you develop through Buddhist meditation. It is about having equanimity. For me that is quite natural and to me it seems obvious when observing men that this is a strong tendency in most and more prevalent the more masculine they are in general. Women on the other hand (and more feminine men) tend more towards experiencing emotion in a way where they are fully outwardly embodying and expressing the emotion and sort of get caught in the emotion (being caught in the emotion is not meant by me as negative). When they look at masculine men (and more masculine women) they interperate what they see as repressing emotions because the men don`t get caught in the emotion like they do. They seem far to still and unexpressive. So something must be wrong. Because if a highly feminine person was still and unexpressive like that it would mean they held emotions in and tightened themselves up to remain composed because they are not able to do that any other way. So the misinterperation of male stoicism that feminism has and has spread to the rest of society stems from the projection of the experience of feminist women (and some feminine men) onto men.

    The result of such projection of course is to try to feminize men as the logical conclusion is that these men holding back emotion must start to display evidence of processing emotion in a way these people find believable for them to be healthy. Which is precisely what feminism has done and what feminists continuosly do and what I constantly see in feminist men and it is exactly what happened to me. The result of a man that is naturally masculine trying to process emotion in a feminine way is that he becomes dysfunctional and weak. Actually becoming like a feminine person and living that successfully does not work. I tried for years and it only made me miserable.

    Being competetive is not a negative trait either. It is a drive to achieve that has been responsible for much (most?) of human acomplishment. It is also fundamentally misunderstood by feminists. When men compete directly it is combined with a form of respect for the competitor and deference to whoever wins out at any given time that makes the competition also into a form of cooperation. All male groups form dominance hierarchies and these are based on respect for the skills that are deemed relevant and the personal strength (dominance) and leadership abilities of the men involved. Men constantly compete in these but they constantly form hierarchies based on the competition that leads to highly efficient cooperation. The competition drives the effort which in turn powers the effectiveness of the cooperation of the hierarchy.

    Women struggle to undestand these dynamics because they themselves feel much more threatened by clear hierarchies and direct competition in their female groups. Both those lead to hostility and the break down of cooperation in all woman groups. Women don`t understand how content men can be with a position that is not “equal” and they don`t understand the willingess of men to seamlessly (mostly) swap position and status and to seemingly fight the other in competition without it being seen as hostile but just a “part of the game”, as men do. Female groups cooperate overtly and punish outright direct competition and challenges but are full of indirect competition and challenges and have very clear hierarchies that are covered up and not made explicit or clear. So when feminists want cooperation what they want is feminine cooperation. That in turn means more feminisng of men and more shaping society in a one sided way to suit women, hence more matriarchy. It means EXTINGUISHING maleness. It is a form of psychological castration. And when they attack male competitiveness they are doing the same thing and are in fact showing that they do in fact find what men naturally are to be inherently evil and trying to extinguish it. Once again it is all about projection. The more I see feminism for what it is the more narcicism becomes the accurate diagnosis. How self absorped do you have to be to see the world in this manner and set out to extinguish what men naturally are.

    Dominance is not evil either. It basically means vying for leadership and authority and power. WHAT you do with that dominance is what makes it moral or immoral. You can combine the will to dominance with the intention of shaping that which you have dominion over for good for those close to you as well as your self, you can include the wider society or the world or you can just aim for selfish gain. The will to excert power over the world and the people in it is a necessary drive that has benefited women indirectly, and which has been encouraged by women indirectly, since the begining of time. And nothing fires up a mans energy, willpower and drive and willingness to sacrifice like when his quest for dominance is motivated by a higher purpose such as his women and children or a wider group of people or a divine power. The quest for dominance flows nicely with the competetive drive it is a brother of within the male hierarchical competetive cooperation structure.

    HeaterN and most feminists probably don`t even understand how integrity and principle, higher purpose and truth are essential masculine virtues and connected to all of the other things. Has any feminist theorist of note, except Paglia of course, celebrated or pointed out ANY masculine virtues?

  26. T, have you read David Deida? Lots of insight into the way men and women experience the world and their inner lives differently. And into polarity between masculine and feminine creates attraction and how to work with those differences. He also has a lot to say about what is mature femininity and masculinity.

  27. I’ve read Deida. I don’t totally agree with his views but the ones I do agree with I agree with strongly. His work was the first book that ever taught me about the concept of women testing men. I was truly clueless about that before reading him.

  28. Nice to have you back T

    Right back at you.

  29. I would love to hear more about your take on Deida sometime. Especially about what you disagree with.

  30. Love it. Dropping some truth bombs with this one.

    Although I’d probably come around to the point in a much more vulgar and brief way:

    When you feel an emotion, any little thing, and you’re bitching about it to anyone who can hear (or gushing about it if its good), or you’re swallowing pills and hacking yourself up whenever you feel a big emotion, you’re not mature, you’re having a fucking tantrum like a two year old, without all the crying and snot (usually).

    I’ll admit, when a lot of men just refuse to feel emotions that’s not a good thing, and it’s much better to feel it without letting it own you. But if you’re just roboting it up through life, then at least everything is stable and you’re unlikely to have some huge crisis or just ruin all your shit and everyone else’s around you, which is somehow related to maturity.

  31. “But if you’re just roboting it up through life, then at least everything is stable and you’re unlikely to have some huge crisis or just ruin all your shit and everyone else’s around you, which is somehow related to maturity.”

    Speaking from personal and anecdotal experience, that sounds more like a recipe for a time bomb.

  32. An obvious proof of your point is the borderline. Who is more open with their emotions than a borderline?

    The definition of maturity used in such “studies” is gynocentric. It’s used as the definition of maturity precisely because it suits women. They had their conclusion before they started.

  33. I would summarize the difference as:

    Both sexes are often guilty of not dealing with emotions maturely. Men are more often avoidant of their emotions while women are more often powerless over their emotions.

  34. Excellent article T! This is something I’ve seen only seen on the surface many times before. While I did realize the myth of the female maturity to an extent, I didn’t realize the depth or breadth of it. I remember discussing with a friend years ago about this and he pointed out that it becomes increasingly clear and you notice it the more mature you yourself are.

    To those that bring of individual specific exceptions, I have four words: “exceptions do not invalidate generalizations” -Kerry Given, Ph.D. One should not ignore the forest due to a few different trees.

    I’ve heard of other cases of American females being passed over due to such behavior back in the 90s. I know of a pair of twins who are very successful who married German WOMEN because they were sick of American females.

    1) As a follow up to the video at the “you’ll do” video. This video illustrates the lack of maturity in emotional vomiting in a way that only excellent comedy can: (It’s not about the nail by Jason Headley).

    Also, regarding the definition of maturity, while helpful is not always necessary. For some things, you know it when you see it. (Similar to Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart regarding his test for obscenity in Jacobellis v. Ohio).

    A good example would be Megan Fox who is quoted as saying: “I’m horrible to live with. I don’t clean. My clothes end up
    wherever I take them off. I forget to flush the toilet. Friends will tell me, “Megan, you totally pinched a loaf in my toilet and didn’t flush.” —FHM, June 2007 (Source: Note: All links are sources found quickly through google and not necessarily the original sources).

    2) Following up on the video about of the hosts of “The View” cheering a castration, apparently the attacker (female) has been sentenced to life in prison. At least, the courts are not taking the same view as some of the hosts of the View. Ms. Kieu probably isn’t laughing.

    3) The source of the problem seems to be the filters that, in this case, are applied to females by males. I’ve seen another male friend demonstrate this by saying to another guy something along the lines of “Is something wrong? You don’t call me enough. Is there something wrong?” It becomes clear very quickly to the person on the receiving end how when a guy says it, it is just weird. These videos seem to illustrates the point well: (Harvard Sailing Team – Boys Will Be Girls) and (What if guys and girls swapped roles at the bar?)

    4) Rashid’s comment and particularly his list is quite great. I would add the whole “the man should know what I want before I want it” or mind reading expectation is just silly. Especially because they don’t know what they want (see below for further). Thank you princess stories, Disney, etc.

    And the lack of honesty about reality and being able to admit when she is wrong. One common measure of maturity is having the maturity to admit when you are wrong.

    I’ve experienced it several times where a girl is mad/upset and either plain does not know why or is incapable of articulating it. This seems to make it up to the man to figure it out or just ignore it and move on. Almost seems like they should be sent to the corner until she can communicate it in less than three sentences. J/K

    It seems to me that most of the advancement in the understanding of women is due to areas like this blog, PUA, etc. are because females are commonly not capable of understanding their own emotions and even less able to clearly and concisely articulate them thereby allowing other to teach.

    There are several articles throughout the internet that talk about “The Eternal Solipsism of the female mind.” One of the early (maybe original) ones seems to be: (The original post seems to be gone.)

    Having intellectual debates no matter the subject or education level of a female (e.g., law school) is very commonly problematic because she will take disagreement personally even if it is based on the facts.

    5) T, you mentioned that David Deida was the first author to introduce you to the concept of women testing men. Which book or webpages, etc. would you recommend as the best on this topic? What are the best sources on this testing that describe how to recognize it and how to deal with it? I know it has been a topic on this site before along with the brilliant raptor analogy.

  35. “Having intellectual debates no matter the subject or education level of a female (e.g., law school) is very commonly problematic because she will take disagreement personally even if it is based on the facts.”

    Let’s be fair here though – while I’ve *definitely* seen that many women will do this, and most of my guy friends will not, I do not think this is actually gender based.

    #1. If you want to see a guy do this, just ask anyone who’s dealt with middle to upper level management in a major corporation.

    #2. You also have an “in group” vs “out group” problem. For similar reasons to why Chris Rock can make jokes about how he’s not watching for white guys to rob him at an atm, he’s watching for n-word, but a white person could *never* make this joke using this language. It has different meaning based on who’s asking the question or making the statement. For a girl who’s raised believe that she’s on some sort of crusade to break into men’s field as a righteous cause – she might be able to discuss things on a less personal level (note that I used the word “might”) with another woman, while talking about the subject with a “man” gets a whole different reaction.

    #2 leads to the first point I had while reading the article – there’s another thing in the maturity chain that’s faking maturity vs understanding maturity (then we get into fake it till you make it, but that’s another subject completely).

    If you’ve had different jobs, you’ll probably met someone who talks a really incredible talk. They seem really confident, they sound like they know what they’re doing, they know all the right words and phrases. But if you have to work with them – it becomes clear they don’t have the slightest idea what they’re doing. They appear impressive because they simply copy what others are saying without actually understanding it at all.

    A lot of times women will **appear** more mature – especially in dating and social relationships – because they copy what “mature” people do – but without actually understanding it.

    For example, an Asian girl I had started dating asked me if I had an asian fetish. When I didn’t answer directly and asked her what she meant – she had no idea. Someone had told her that it was bad if someone with an Asian fetish was dating her, but she didn’t actually know what it meant. Another example is how girls often believe that open conflict is not mature. But a group of guys who all appear to be getting along are far more likely to actually be mature and able to resolve interpersonal conflicts in the group, then a group of girls who are often more focussed on “appearing” mature but don’t actually have common agreements on how to get along. I could probably write better examples if I took a day to think about it, but girls (on average) spend more time maintaining the appearance of maturity while not actually being mature than guys do. (Unless you get into fields where men are also judged more by appearance than by ability, like middle and upper management in a large coporation.)

    Even then, I’m not saying that it’s always bad. I went to college because that’s what you were “supposed” to do – and now I make more money than most of my non-college friends. My ability to talk the talk has gotten me jobs and gotten coworkers to like me – despite the fact that in retrospect, I really didn’t realize how little I actually understood about what I was talking about. And “fake it till you make it” does work for many things – as long as your focus is on making it.

    But it does create an impression that a group who focusses on appearing knowledgeable or mature **appears** more knowledgeable or mature than a group who’s focus is on actually doing the thing.

  36. Really good comment Paul

  37. Thanks! :-)

  38. Sheckels, awesome comment

  39. Luigi Borrelli on July 9th, 2013 at 10:46 PM

    Off-topic: what do you think of the growing community of “game deniers” such has puahate? More specifically what do you think of their vigorous denial of self-actualization, and on the other hand how much truth lies in their cries?

  40. Figured you might find this interesting:

  41. My possible solution is a therapeutic language pattern known as “Grovian Metaphor”, or better known as “Clean Language. As they are all based on questions they have an automatic imply that the other at the metaphor/symbol level has to solve their “binds”.

    Might not get a gent laid, but that whole “emo-rag” thing takes on a new horizon. Fun as heck, as the drippy soul has to own their solution at a symbolic level, which is close to that fun hindbrain. One doesn’t need the whole set of questions, just a few to change the shared perspective.

  42. Why is it that any email sent to you is blocked by some stupid spam bot?

    However: How should one deal with the ego of others? My own ego forbids me from just complying and giving them what they want, especially when it’s a woman that I like and by complying might get pushed into a total inferior/codependent role.

    But calling them out on their bullshit usually results in an arguement. Now I’m not talking about narcissists per se, but rather about some narcissistic traits that can be really annoying.

  43. Interesting…Definitely agree about the emotional masturbation.
    Emotions, like anything else, require discipline to be useful, otherwise it’s just a collection of stuff.
    All the meotions or all the knowledge on the internet about stuff; training, diet, finances etc….is just stuff in your head until you can actually act consistently on it to reach goals.
    For the mega discipline you need for success check out;

    good stuff and good book

  44. You have no doubt already read everything from TLP, but read this one again and most importantly read his comment (

    Your blog post about female immaturity may likely damage a lot of guys (even further).

  45. Quibble with your definition of “faulty immature coping mechanisms.”
    Coping mechanisms are exactly that: strategies to help us cope with the insurmountable. Imagine the psychological wreckage without them. I think the point is that they can be invoked temporarily , not forever.

  46. I like your post Ricky… But the comments section. And men wonder why there’s nothing more than Men’s Rights Advocates and nothing else.

    There will never be a movement, think tanks, boycotts, marches or appearances on mainstream channels.

    Men in America too worried about correcting a problem that’s been 40 years in the making and will take at least 20 years for the correction to start but that will only happen with the collapse of the Feminism and Marriage 2.0

    Who cares if women are immature, emotional nuclear radiation blast waiting to happen? The real problem is they are vindictive…

  47. Anthony, I’m not getting your point.

  48. Did you quit writing blog posts?

  49. No. I’ll actually be coming back within the month.

  50. Hi, late posting and new to this website. I find the dynamic between men and women in the USA quite strange. I am from Africa and am of German roots, so a lot of what is covered in the article and the comments seem quite alien. As a female mechanical engineer, I hardly fit the shopping princess female men seem to complain about. I work for a top ten global brand company and have experienced the worst of the corporate world. As a wife, I have no chance of getting a divorce and “taking everything” which a lot of American men complain about, In fact if I got divorced I would have to start all over again financially. What is disturbing is that my husband has severe physiological issues that actually manifest physically. This does not mean that he is immature, but that he cannot handle his emotions, and has been told that it is from years of suppression, by constantly hanging around men and not being able to “masturbate emotionally”, as it isn’t a guys approach to solving problems (very evident from this article). I do not agree that masturbation, whether physical or emotional, is a bad thing at all, but suppression of feelings or sexuality is a bad thing. What I do feel is a fundamental problem is how everyone is so concerned with labeling men as such, and women as another, when often it can be reversed, as in my case. You will drive yourself crazy trying to put certain attributes to a gender, as the boundaries between the two are very much blurred. Man, breadwinner? Not always. Woman, there to nurture only? Not necessarily. Maybe people are comforted by this kind of stereotypical understanding, but dare I say that it isn’t really applicable anymore, and thinking that it is may be the most immature of all. But what would I know about psychology, I am just an engineer that likes facts and figures :)

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