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The Myth of Female Maturity, Part 1

 

[Note: this is specifically about today's women in the modern, developed world, especially the West, not womankind from the beginning of recorded history or from all over the world.]

One of the most accepted premises of our society is that women are more mature on average than men. It’s so accepted that it’s hardly ever questioned, either by men or women. Look at TV commercials or sitcoms, where the guy is often a childish buffoon or oaf and the woman is the long-suffering, patient, and more mature partner who must act almost like a mother to the man’s child. If you watch talk shows, news programs, and stand-up comedy, also, pandering to the idea of female maturity and pointing out the ways in which men are immature is an easy way to get ratings, audience approval, and a cheap laugh.

This wasn’t always the case, however. For example, think back to shows like I Love Lucy, where the roles were reversed and the male Ricky Ricardo had to act like a surrogate parent and deal with his female spouse’s immature, buffoonish ways, and clean up the messes her immaturity would cause. Such a show wouldn’t be allowed to exist today, but at one point in Western society it was the norm to assume that the average man was more mature than the average female, and this belief was often reflected in the popular culture of past eras. However, if a show nowadays ever tried to return to that dynamic, it wouldn’t go well. Not only would women likely be outraged, but so would modern men. At the very least, the immature woman would have to be treated within the show as an acknowledged exception or anomaly, to ensure to the viewers of the show that the creators know most women are not immature, whereas with the immature men depicted on television, there isn’t as much concern with assuring the viewer that the oafs on the screen are not meant to represent the typical male.

There is a ebook called The Great Female Con by Andey Randead that I have recommended as essential reading in my Recommended Reading Section, have been emphasizing lately on my Facebook fan page, and mentioned in recent blog posts. One topic the book discusses is whether the average woman is indeed more mature than the average men. Randead makes the case that while they are savvier and more socially sophisticated, they aren’t actually more mature (emphasis is from original text):

I tried to understand why females seem less mature and more selfish than men. First, I looked at specifics to see that they actually are. Did you ever watch a group of grown women at a strip show? It’s like a group of teenagers. You’d think they’d never seen a penis in their lives. They laugh, they scream, they grab, and they suck. Unbelievable. I always used to think that this was because women were not used to this luxury of seeing male strippers, and since it was a novelty, they were goofier about how they responded to it.

Men, on the other hand, have been doing that for years. They are much more civil and reserved. They basically just sit and watch. No teenage antics, usually. So I figured that once the novelty wore off, females would eventually act similarly to the males. Well, guess what? It’s been many years since the advent of male strippers, and females are still as goofy and immature as ever. Even though most have seen more dick ends than weekends, they still react in an immature, childish way towards it. Is it because they’re embarrassed? The way they grab at the guy’s cock would suggest not. Is it because it’s a novelty? They’ve been doing it for thirty years now. Is it because they haven’t seen many before? Fat chance.

Although this is one silly example of women’s immaturity, I believe it is an indicator of one of my theories. There is no question that women mature faster than men both physically and mentally. However, I believe they only mature to a certain point. Men, although slower, mature to a higher level. This is why women can do and say much more to men than men can do or say to women. Men are mature enough to deal with it and let it slide. Women aren’t.

As a man, if I were to make any comment that was even in the slightest bit derogatory, disrespectful, or degrading towards women, every woman in the room would jump up and protest, yet women can say the exact same thing about men and guys just let it slide. So much so that women don’t even realize when they’ve made a comment that is really sexist towards men. That’s not training or tolerance on the men’s part; that’s a higher level of maturity at play…

Women are like maple trees, men like oak trees. The maples grow fast, but only to a certain point. The oak takes time, but grows to a higher level of maturity.

This point about how easy it is for women to say stereotypical or sexist things about men with men just taking the high road and not making a big deal about it is very true. For example, when Lorena Bobbitt made the news for cutting off her husband’s penis, plenty of talk show hosts, both male and female, made lots of jokes about it. And female entertainers especially made jokes where they portrayed Bobbitt in a positive light. Some women even joked they were going to “pull a Lorena Bobbitt” if they ever caught a man cheating on them. Now imagine if a man, because his woman cheated on him, disfigured her genitalia in any way, and then talk shows and comedians of either gender tried to make light out of it? Would the average woman be able to laugh it off?

Let’s look at a recent controversy that occurred on the show The Talk, a blatant ripoff of The View, when a news story was discussed involving a woman who cut off her husband’s penis and threw it in the garbage disposal and shredded it because he filed for divorce. One of the hosts, Sharon Osbourne, proclaimed among other things that it was “quite fabulous” and “hysterical”. She even added that she still lights candles by Lorena Bobbitt’s picture and “loves her.” Meanwhile the female audience laughed uproariously.

 

Imagine if a national broadast show hosted by men with an audience of men did that about the abuse of a woman who filed for divorce? First, I highly doubt it would ever happen, but even if it did, I doubt the audience reaction would be so enthusiastic and overwhelmingly positive. And you can bet the man would be fired.

Thanks to men’s advocacy, more men are waking up to these double standards, so something happened to Sharon Osbourne that never would have happened even a decade ago: men organized and protested. They did so until the show was forced to address it and apologize. What do you think of the sincerity of the apology however?

Picture if a man, after doing something so offensive toward women, snickered when trying to later apologize for it. Would he still be allowed to keep his job the way Sharon Osbourne did?

There are plenty of other examples of double standards that show how women are actually less mature than men. Who is more likely to throw a tantrum and make a public scene in a couple, a man or a woman? It’s anecdotal,sure, but in my experience, both as a participant and as an observer to others, it’s more often the woman. Randead touches on this too:

 

I have made many enemies over the years because I refuse to be made to feel uncomfortable when a personal situation between a couple arises. Invariably the female will make a scene, disregarding that anyone else with them is becoming uncomfortable while witnessing this. They will cry, yell, and talk about personal things, right in public and in front of whoever happens to be there at the time.

Stop and think about this. That alone proves a level of immaturity, selfishness, and lack of respect. If a man were to act this way in public, he would be outcast from society. No one would ever want to be around him again. He would be classified as a loser, a wife-abuser, and an asshole. Yet women do it all the time, and it’s tolerated.

Take Chris Rock’s point he made in a standup routine once: “Don’t argue! You cannot win, you cannot beat a woman in an argument. It’s impossible. You will not win. Cause men, we are handicapped when it comes to arguing cause we have a need to make sense” But why is it that women on average are so much more logic-impaired and prone to emotion during arguments than men? Again, because they’re less mature.

In the next installment, I’m going to discuss two reasons why I think men uncritically accept the idea of women being more mature than men.

Recommended Reading:

The Great Female Con is an ebook I read years ago, and it, along with Anatomy of Female Power which I think it’s on par with, challenged a lot of my views on the world. Even if you don’t agree with everything it says, it definitely makes some great points that are very thought-provoking. It’s one of those books where after you read it, it’s very hard to “unread” it and ever look at the world the same ever again. I’ve been re-emphasizing this book lately because I plan to write several articles discussing its theories, as well as interview the author Andey Randead about the book. You can buy it here, and I highly recommend you do so.

UPDATE: Since the author of this book has agreed to do an interview with me, and this post has already generated such controversy, I encourage people to comment and leave questions for the author that you would like answered, whether negative or positive. I will include them in my questions. Thanks.

UPDATE 2: I left this comment below, and I think it adds a lot of nuance that wasn’t originally in the post, so I’m adding it to the main body of the post, even though it makes the post a little longer than I originally wanted it to be:

I am not saying that women are INCAPABLE of immaturity, or that EVERY man is more mature than every woman. (Not that you’re accusing me of saying this, but I point this out in case someone else is planning to take that route)

However, I think on average it’s a point that needs to be considered. Society contemplates the inferior maturity of the average man all the time, in commercials, nonfiction books, media articles, etc., but the moment an article suggests the reverse is in for a storm of controversy.

As a result, I think a lot of average guys end up internalizing without questioning it this idea that they’re automatically less mature than women, and it starts affecting all their adult relationships.

I also think this knee-jerk response against such considerations is a big reason why so many men become over the top misogynistic. They start off at one extreme, believing one myth for so long, and when they keep getting burned by this Pollyanna belief, the hurt causes them to overcompensate in the opposite direction, feel like society “lied” to them, and they become misogynists thinking all women are bad and man can do no wrong.

I think if society was as willing to talk about gender issues more evenhandedly in both directions, and consider things like whether the average woman is less mature than the average man as easily as it considers vice versa, less men would become raging misogynists down the road, because they’d develop more realistic and less idealized views of women, become less hurt and betrayed when women don’t live up to these idealized views, and less likely to switch to the opposite extreme after being burned a few times by the average woman.

Women in general are far more aware of the dark side of the average man than vice versa. For example, look at the advice a woman receives about men from the time she’s a child, both from her mother AND her father: “All men are just out for one thing.” “Make sure a guy does x,y, or z for you before you consider making him your boyfriend,” “He’s just not that into you if he doesn’t do a, b, or c,” “Never let yourself be left alone with a man you don’t know,” and so on and so on. Take the reverse, what is the advice the average man receives about a woman? How often are men every educated about the dark side of the average woman, either by his father or his mother? Usually instead he’s trained to idealize women and find better ways to audition for them. This also leads to men having lower standards for female behavior and demanding less from women, which I think contributes to the immaturity.

40 Responses to “The Myth of Female Maturity, Part 1”


  1. I thought this article has some gaping flaws in the some of the arguments (while it did point out some hypocrisy in our society which is great).

    Since I’m a mismatcher/ smartass:

    “Women are like maple trees, men like oak trees. The maples grow fast, but only to a certain point. The oak takes time, but grows to a higher level of maturity”

    You haven’t provided any evidence to support this statement, perhaps the book does but even the quote itself doesn’t really support the statement.

    and this:

    “Take Chris Rock’s point he made in a standup routine once: “Don’t argue! You cannot win, you cannot beat a woman in an argument. It’s impossible. You will not win. Cause men, we are handicapped when it comes to arguing cause we have a need to make sense” But why is it that women on average are so much more logic-impaired and prone to emotion during arguments than men? Again, because they’re less mature.”

    This strikes me as simply a misogynistic, ignorant statement. You can’t seriously quote a comedy routine and expect to be taken seriously as making an intellectual point can you?


  2. Are you asking whether the maple tree/oak tree thing is literally scientifically true or not, because I think that’s beside the point. It’s just meant to be a metaphor.

    As far as whether or not the idea of women on average being less mature is misogynistic or not, your reaction is exactly what I mean. How many articles or commercials or books come out describing how men are less mature than women? They come out all the time. For example Kay Hymowitz came out with a book calls “Man Up” all about how this generation of men are a bunch of immature manchildren. Flocks of media outlets picked up the discussion uncritically, and many female blogs hopped on the bandwagon. How often did women responding to such articles jump to defend the men or call the premises misandrist? Yet the minute I post an article suggesting the opposite, what happens? The very first male commenter jumps to the defense of women and their maturity in a way female commenters rarely jump to the defense of men when it’s a similar article with genders reversed. But that willingness to immediately see the other person’s side and defend it that men often exercise in response to these articles is a sign of high maturity.


  3. I know the oak tree thing was a metaphor. I’d have to be pretty stupid not to realise that wouldn’t I?

    What if I said “white people are better than black people, just like the white angels are more pure than the black devils” and then you said, well that’s racist and you haven’t supported your statement, and then I said “I never said it was scientifically true, it was a metaphor”, you would still take issue with this statement wouldn’t you?

    I get that men will defend women in a way that women will not. I guess that’s sexist, certainly they’re are mature men and immature women out there that’s for sure.

    I think its an interesting statement that defending someone else’s POV is a sign of maturity, I’m not so sure about this. (I accept that this makes me arguably immature by my own definition)


  4. One thing that confused me about this article is that I can’t tell if in addition to your questioning the widely held belief that women are more mature then men, you’re also trying to make a case that women are actually the more immature gender.

    For example, that quote about men being ‘oaks’ with greater potential maturity. Is that a view you personally endorse?


  5. you already know this T., but this article is going to get linked on a PUA our MRA or HBD message board, and your arguments used to support someone’s biased viewpoint.

    I enjoyed the article :-). looking forward to part 2.


  6. Cameron said:

    “What if I said “white people are better than black people, just like the white angels are more pure than the black devils” and then you said, well that’s racist and you haven’t supported your statement, and then I said “I never said it was scientifically true, it was a metaphor”, you would still take issue with this statement wouldn’t you?”

    B.Larsen: Strawman argument. Blatant trolling. only 2 comments in and you make it about race? clearly you have an agenda.


  7. Cameron, I didn’t mean to imply you were stupid. To be honest, I think me thinking you were being literal is more evidence of me being momentarily stupid than vice versa, for me to misunderstand your point so badly. I wrote back really quickly without thinking before I realized what you meant.

    It was a brainfart on my part.

    I get that men will defend women in a way that women will not. I guess that’s sexist, certainly they’re are mature men and immature women out there that’s for sure.

    I think its an interesting statement that defending someone else’s POV is a sign of maturity, I’m not so sure about this. (I accept that this makes me arguably immature by my own definition)

    I am not saying that women are INCAPABLE of immaturity, or that EVERY man is more mature than every woman. (Not that you’re accusing me of saying this, but I point this out in case someone else is planning to take that route)

    However, I think on average it’s a point that needs to be considered. Society contemplates the inferior maturity of the average man all the time, in commercials, nonfiction books, media articles, etc., but the moment an article suggests the reverse is in for a storm of controversy.

    As a result, I think a lot of average guys end up internalizing without questioning it this idea that they’re automatically less mature than women, and it starts affecting all their adult relationships.

    I also think this knee-jerk response against such considerations is a big reason why so many men become over the top misogynistic. They start off at one extreme, believing one myth for so long, and when they keep getting burned by this Pollyanna belief, the hurt causes them to overcompensate in the opposite direction, feel like society “lied” to them, and they become misogynists thinking all women are bad and man can do no wrong.

    I think if society was as willing to talk about gender issues more evenhandedly in both directions, and consider things like whether the average woman is less mature than the average man as easily as it considers vice versa, less men would become raging misogynists down the road, because they’d develop more realistic and less idealized views of women, become less hurt and betrayed when women don’t live up to these idealized views, and less likely to switch to the opposite extreme after being burned a few times by the average woman.

    Women in general are far more aware of the dark side of the average man than vice versa. For example, look at the advice a woman receives about men from the time she’s a child, both from her mother AND her father: “All men are just out for one thing.” “Make sure a guy does x,y, or z for you before you consider making him your boyfriend,” “He’s just not that into you if he doesn’t do a, b, or c,” and so on and so on. Take the reverse, what is the advice the average man receives about a woman? How often are men every educated about the dark side of the average woman, either by his father or his mother? Usually instead he’s trained to idealize women and find better ways to audition for them. This also leads to men having lower standards for female behavior and demanding less from women, which I think contributes to the immaturity.


  8. One thing that confused me about this article is that I can’t tell if in addition to your questioning the widely held belief that women are more mature then men, you’re also trying to make a case that women are actually the more immature gender.

    For example, that quote about men being ‘oaks’ with greater potential maturity. Is that a view you personally endorse?

    I don’t think men have great potential maturity, in the sense that I don’t think women can be as mature as men. I think a woman can easily be as mature or more mature as men. What I believe is that on average, they end up not becoming as mature as men, for various reasons. The book I linked to goes into those reasons, but one reason is that they just have such a superior position in the sexual marketplace that the average guy just demands far less of them than vice versa, so lesser expectations end up playing a role. Also, I think parents raise daughters to have a higher sense of entitlement than they raise sons to have ON AVERAGE. Of course there are exceptions.

    I don’t want this to turn into a genetic determinist argument where it seems I’m claiming that women are literally incapable of being as mature as or more mature than men. It’s more that I believe in practice that doesn’t happen because of various factors in society.


  9. B. Larsen, from my past dealings with Cameron, I think he made that argument in good faith. I think the danger with dealing with so many of the HBD “gentlemen racists” crowd is that you start anticipating hidden agendas a lot (I speak from personal experience), but in this case I don’t think it applies.


  10. Cameron, according to scientific studies, on average women score higher on neuroticism (a measure of the big 5 personality test) which is negatively correlated with emotional maturity. So, there’s your evidence. You can google it if you like.

    But keep in mind, this is on a bell curve. So of course there are women who extremely emotionally mature, but on average they are less so than men.


  11. T:

    In my opinion I don’t see how anyone could even begin to make a case that one gender is more or less mature than the other, even if we’re talking about ‘on average’. It seems like a debate where no matter what position someone wanted to take they could cherry pick a bunch of examples to support their view.

    If someone wanted to point out specific instances of how one gender is immature or mature in particular ways, sure. But talking about what sex more is mature on the whole seems unanswerable.


  12. In my opinion I don’t see how anyone could even begin to make a case that one gender is more or less mature than the other, even if we’re talking about ‘on average’. It seems like a debate where no matter what position someone wanted to take they could cherry pick a bunch of examples to support their view.

    If someone wanted to point out specific instances of how one gender is immature or mature in particular ways, sure. But talking about what sex more is mature on the whole seems unanswerable.

    Okay, just look at this response. That’s a VERY mature attitude. How often on an article about male immaturity will you see such a response from women in defense of men? And even if you do see it, what is the ratio of such responses to responses from females cheerleading the main article?


  13. 1 Certainly there always a danger that people think your trolling when you mention race, I merely meant to emphasize that I found it as offensive to hear someone say “men are more mature than women” (on average) than Ricky would (presumably) find me saying “white people are morally superior to black people on average” (note that this is NOT meant to suggest that I hold these views).

    Although its interesting to me on reflection, it makes a lot more sense to me for a black man to be offended when he hears someone make racist statements (or statements which he believes to be racist) than it does for a man to be offended when he hears sexist statements (or statements that he believes to be sexist), theres always the “women (or minority group X) are perfectly capable of defending themselves argument” (especially in the case of a publicised blog).

    2 Actually I get that you weren’t implying I was stupid, it was something I inferred and I take responsibility for being so sensitive.

    3 Your last argument is very interesting to me. I’m personally always interested in things that offend me. I find often times its because I’m jealous, projecting or reacting against something which I know unconsciously to be true.

    I will consider whether thinking men on average are more mature than women is true or not. I will say (though this hardly proves anything about the average person) that my father is considerably more mature (IMO) than my mother.

    I do have idolized views of women (or did) and maybe getting told they were less capable of reasoning logical (or at least that its ok to think that) would have prevented me from doing so.


  14. A number of the things you attribute to immaturity in this article I would say point more to the inherent power imbalance that has existed between women and men.

    Women get upset when they are portrayed as childish and needing men to protect and guide them not out of a sense of immaturity. It’s because we’ve been routinely discriminated against for years and years and years. Yes, you’re right–men are less sensitive about such portrayals. Why should they be? They’ve had the privilege.

    Women more excited about male strippers? It’s because women are–even now–marketed as nothing more than an object of the male gaze. To be in a position where it’s men who are put in that position that we live with every single day–oh yes, it’s intoxicating.

    A double standard on genital mutilation jokes? Maybe that’s because female genital mutilation ACTUALLY HAPPENS. It’s an accepted part of some cultures. It’s a potent symbol for the abuse women still suffer at the hands of men.

    I am incredibly disappointed by this article. I’ve read so many insightful articles here, this really shocked me to read it. Whether or not you intended it, the implications that women are immature based on comedic anecdotes and pop culture tidbits–without any exploration into the deeper cultural meanings behind these things–is just shoddy science.


  15. Cameron, I have actually discussed maturity issues in the black community before (actually, within the inner-city black community, which I shouldn’t imply represents the WHOLE black community):

    http://therawness.com/myth-of-.....lpha-male/

    I have no problem with someone pointing out in good faith there are certain immature tendencies in the black community on average. It’s more when people try to claim that it’s solely attributable to genetics, that environment plays little to no role, and that such tendencies are unchangeable and that blacks are incapable of ever achieving what other races can achieve that I get upset. Similarly, I’m not saying that women are genetically incapable of the same maturity as men, or that this is due to hardwired biology or some other type of genetic determinist or evolutionary psychology argument. I think there are many societal and environmental factors that cause this to be the case, and i admit that there are plenty of exceptions to the rule.


  16. Barbara, you have a more nuanced and informed view than the average Jane on the street. just my opinion, but I don’t think the average tv viewer is thinking about female genital mutilation in other countries when she laughs her butt off about penises getting lopped off by American women.

    I also think the lack of outrage regarding male portrayal in media has more to do with the target audience, which is female, and much less to do with a historically contextualized view of gender power balance. They’re selling to women, so they give women what they want.


  17. Barbara, the book actually has more examples. You may or may not find them persuasive, but I’m currently trying to keep blog posts shorter than before, so I didn’t want to lay out a whole, expanded case to support the premise just yet. This is only part 1.

    Also, since I plan to interview the author in a few days, I highly encourage anyone reading to provide question suggestions for me to ask him, whether negative, positive, or neutral. I can’t promise I’ll get to all of them, but I’ll definitely ask the best ones.

  18. Scott Stevens on March 11th, 2013 at 3:55 PM

    Cameron, you’re an idiot.

    Great article, and spot on. Yes, women are basically like children in lots of ways, with their inability to control emotion. I wouldn’t change them, as it’s men’s maturity and logic, that fits with women’s childish ways – teamwork. It’s just nauseating the way that media and society portray it as being reversed. It’s gone too far, now.

    The tree analogy is sound – I’ll use it, if you don’t mind? I’ll add it to my repertoire, along with my other favourite, “Men are like fine wine – they age well; women are like beer – they go off the minute they’re opened.”

    Good stuff.


  19. T,
    When I first read this post, I got a little upset. I’ve long valued your insights into interpersonal relationships, and here you were arguing the blunt hypothesis that women were flat-out less mature than men? Really?
    Then I read your comment from 2:57 and found myself agreeing completely. Your attitude there was more considered and more in line with the T I feel I’ve come to know.
    This is all to say that I hope you’ll include your points from that comment in your followup post. The original sets off certain alarms in my head (e.g. “they’re less mature” or “the maples grow fast, but only to a certain point”) and, I think, muddies the valid points you’re trying to make.


  20. Scott, thanks for the kind words, but I don’t think calling Cameron an idiot is necessary. Even when I disagree with him, I think he’s a smart guy and comes in good faith. You can use the analogy if you want, but it’s not mine anyway. It comes from the author of the original book.

    Chris, I was going to save the analysis in the comment you like for the next installment, in an effort to keep the post short, but I decided to add it into the main body of the post just to nip a lot of misinterpretation in the bud.


  21. Ricky,

    I will admit I haven’t had a chance to look at the book, but I would absolutely like to reframe my comment into a question for the author, especially if the book doesn’t touch on the social power dynamics involved.

    Basically, when there’s still so much internalized and externalized sexism rampant in our society (see the gaming community, the publishing community, Tropes vs. Women, certain public comments about rape made in the last election), how can you put forth a theory that women are less capable of maturity than men based on intrinsic female capabilities rather than external pressures and influences?


  22. Barbara, I’m not sure if the author actually believes that women are less capable of maturity, or if he believes they just tend to be less mature for other reasons. It’s been a while since I read the book cover to cover, so I don’t remember if he addresses So I will ask your question, but first I will ask whether he believes that women are actually incapable of maturity in the first place or if they just tend not to become as mature on average due to other reasons.


  23. T,

    - I read on the author’s website that he is married. Could you ask him why he decided to marry even though there are so much risks involved?

    - I hope you are not tempted to revert back to those long posts. LOL

    - Lastly I think women are immature because they are spoiled, plain and simple. The “pussy pass” is real. Society at large, not just her mate holds her to much lower standards than the average male and bend over backwards to accommodate here. Women that have experienced the harshness of life, and didn’t have people always bailing her out would probably be very mature.


  24. I hope you are not tempted to revert back to those long posts. LOL

    LOL, no, I like it better this way.

    Lastly I think women are immature because they are spoiled, plain and simple. The “pussy pass” is real. Society at large, not just her mate holds her to much lower standards than the average male and bend over backwards to accommodate here. Women that have experienced the harshness of life, and didn’t have people always bailing her out would probably be very mature.

    This is my take as well, and I believe it’s the author’s, although I don’t want to put words in his mouth. It’s one of the things I will put forth to him in the interview.


  25. Okay, just look at this response. That’s a VERY mature attitude. How often on an article about male immaturity will you see such a response from women in defense of men? And even if you do see it, what is the ratio of such responses to responses from females cheerleading the main article?

    I totally agree that in the specific situation of discussing the other gender’s maturity levels women show a more immature, double-standard-ish attitude on the whole.

    Personally I wouldn’t see that as any kind of evidence that women are globally more immature as a gender. I think you have to look at things on a case by case basis.cf. f n

  26. Abelard Lindsey on March 12th, 2013 at 1:20 AM

    Women are like maple trees, men like oak trees. The maples grow fast, but only to a certain point. The oak takes time, but grows to a higher level of maturity.

    There is unrest in the forest, and the creatures all have fled.
    For the maples scream “oppression” and the oaks just shake their heads…


  27. People get so worked up when you bring up gender politics, but in the spirit of this blog, it’s really not a genetic argument (that women may or may not be less mature) but a sociological/psychological argument.

    Beautiful woman = Great (male) athlete

    We’ve all heard stories about how young male athletes are spoiled, coddled, catered to. How people (men) are more than willing to help and do things for athlete. How the athlete can behave in ways that are unacceptable in our society (e.g., Leonard Little of the St. Louis Rams drunk driving and killing a woman) but still allowed to be a respectable member of society.

    We also know that the magical dream ride eventually ends. Athletes’ performances slips, a woman loses her beauty. The difference being that a former male athlete is now treated as any other man, whereas a formerly beautiful woman is still part of the protected and pedastalized class.

    *What impetus does a moderately attractive to highly attractive woman have to progress past a certain level of mental acuity when there are hundreds and thousands of (dumb) men willing to serve as her safety net?

    I think she SHOULD, in an attempt to become a fully self-actualized human being. But IMO most people behave according to incentives.

    Who do we blame for providing these incentives for (some/many) women to behave in immature ways. Horny men? Western culture that pedestalizes women? How do we remove these incentives, or provide alternate incentives to compel women to behave differently.


  28. Cameron said:

    I do have idolized views of women (or did) and maybe getting told they were less capable of reasoning logical (or at least that its ok to think that) would have prevented me from doing so.

    Okay, I just want to point out, I don’t think women are literally incapable of logical reasoning. I read plenty of books and articles by women that have impeccable logical reasoning. What I’m saying is that I think on average many women never feel the need to learn to make sure their arguments are logical and make sense, and feel fine using emotion in the place of reason, because they grew up in situations where many people allowed them to, whether it’s their parents or their boyfriends. This is not the same as saying they CAN’T be logical. Some of the deepest, most logical thinkers I’ve ever read are women, as you can see by the number of books by women I recommend in my recommended reading section. I think it’s more a matter of socialization and incentives. The average woman is allowed to get away with immaturity far more than the average man is, for a variety of reasons, and that plays a big role. Sadly, if she grows up hot and without hobbies, it’s even worse.


  29. A few questions for Andey Randead, having recently read TGFC:

    1) How do you think this kind of thinking has or has not potentially warped or clarified your mindset towards women in general?

    2) A slow spiral towards misogyny might be easy to succumb to after reading TGFC and other books (like Manipulated Man). Do you accept and love women as they are, (like your daughter and wife), even after writing that sort of book?

    3) If these questions are somewhat on the right track, but not taken far enough or have enough depth, please elaborate on whatever you feel you need to?

    Thanks to both you and T for this. I’m a big fan of both this blog and TGFC.


  30. Good tough questions Tim. Thanks.


  31. While I agree with you to a certain extent I think you have recoiled too far in the opposite direction when you say that women as a rule don’t mature as much as men.
    I’ve always felt that the genders are equal but not equivalent. What I mean by this is that although as a rule women may be less mature than men in certain situations ,eg with the strippers, they are probably more mature in other situations. It’s just that maturity will manifest itself differently in women than men.
    Therefore if you ask a man which is the more mature gender he will probably tell you men are because being a man his ideas about maturity are male ideas about what maturity is. However if you ask a female about maturity she will tell you women are for the same reason.
    Also I think the reaction to the genital mutilation is not representative of the general female reaction to it. Most girls I actually speak to agree it is horrible. Just because there are examples of immature female reactions portrayed in the media doesn’t mean it’s generally true, that’s the same as assuming all men are oafish because of their portrayal


  32. Thanks for the tip on the book and upcoming interview.

    It seems to me the mass media is “high” at the moment on rape, domestic violence and other “attacks” on women. Yet the false accusations against men must also be rising (if documented or reported at all). With this and the general entertainment value in mass media (and, individually) of portraying men as fools etc I’d be interested to know what the author thinks about this and what is his advice or ideas on how to respond to it as an individual, when I witness it, or how men should respond as a group – if at all?


  33. “A number of the things you attribute to immaturity in this article I would say point more to the inherent power imbalance that has existed between women and men.

    Women get upset when they are portrayed as childish and needing men to protect and guide them not out of a sense of immaturity. It’s because we’ve been routinely discriminated against for years and years and years. Yes, you’re right–men are less sensitive about such portrayals. Why should they be? They’ve had the privilege.”

    Like the article said, we haven’t seen the “bumbling female” stereotype commonly in popular media for about 50 years. Whereas the “bumbling male” stereotype has been around for that same 50 years. I don’t see it.

    I could see an argument that the “bumbling male” stereotype is offset by the fact that there’s also plenty of “powerful/assertive guy who knows what he’s doing” stereotype’s as well, one isn’t as sensitive towards a negative stereotype if there are also opposite positive stereotypes.

    “Women more excited about male strippers? It’s because women are–even now–marketed as nothing more than an object of the male gaze. To be in a position where it’s men who are put in that position that we live with every single day–oh yes, it’s intoxicating.”

    This argument ignores many of the realities of current society – while the female figure is marketed as an object to male gaze, it ignores the obvious reality that it is ALSO marketed just as much (maybe more) as an object to the female gaze.

    Girls dress up to look good for family gatherings where they have no interest in actually attracting sexual attention. They dress up to go out with their female friends to places where men aren’t even going to be. They judge each other based on how they look, including deciding who has more status and who they’re going to be friends with. It’s women who run fashion magazines and who buy the vast majority of magazines with a girl on the cover. Certainly what men like is a large factor, but it’s not more than 50% of why and how women look at their body and how they’re dressed – they do it for other women as much or more than they do it for men.

    Having disagreed with you on the other points, I actually agree that I think women’s attitudes towards strippers is because it’s new and stuff – but that’s a result of women starting to objectify men’s bodies like men have women’s. One cannot logically say that objectifying women’s bodies is bad and objectifying, while simulaneously saying that doing exactly the same thing to men’s bodies is wonderful. Now I’m fine with women finding similar things in men attractive (looks) that men find in women (looks), but it’s disingenous to claim that it’s bad when men do it but also good when women do it.

    “A double standard on genital mutilation jokes? Maybe that’s because female genital mutilation ACTUALLY HAPPENS. It’s an accepted part of some cultures. It’s a potent symbol for the abuse women still suffer at the hands of men.”

    You completely ignored the specific examples where it was exactly that it “actually happened” to men in the US, going with an immature argument that’s basically “I’m going to ignore things I don’t like”. (Not that I haven’t seen men make plenty of similar arguments, but I don’t consider good either).

    Female genital mutilation is a problem in Africa, and may or may not be a problem among recent immigrants, but it is not any sort of real problem in the US. There is no cultural standard of performing it in US culture, it’s illegal here as well as commonly seen as a revolting practice.

    Your argument is like me saying that it’s still common practice in some African village that upon reaching maturity, to become a man, every male member of the village has to go out with a spear and kill a lion. This results in a fair number of men being killed upon reaching maturity, and thus I’m repressed as a man. It just doesn’t matter – because we’re not living in Africa.


  34. The most interesting (and closest to what I observe) theory I’ve read is that on a societal level, women are encouraged to be more emotional and sometimes less “mature” because it’s better for raising kids.

    Kids don’t even develop the capacity for non-emotional thinking until they’re about 5. And they don’t have the capacity to realize their logical thinking potential until they’re around their teenage years. A parent who’s more mature is better at handling the outside world at large, but a parent who’s less mature and more emotional (though more emotional is not inherently less mature) is better at being a supportive parent for children. They’re better at understanding their children’s needs, and they’re better at understanding their children’s situation and offering useful guidance as the children grow up, giving the children an advantage over children without that level of understanding from their parents.

    What I’m writing for this is just a theory that I’ve read that makes sense to me, I’m not claiming it’s “the truth”. But it’s been the most interesting theory that I’ve read.


  35. Dude I paid my $20 using paypal for the book and didn’t get a link to download it. How do I get my book?


  36. I believe he emails you a link with the PDF immediately. That’s what happened when I bought a copy years ago. If you don’t get a PDF from him in a few hours and its not in your spam email folder, drop me a direct email and I’ll forward it along to him.


  37. Barbara – Male genital mutilation happens FAR MORE OFTEN than female genital mutilation. Male GM is widely accepted, female GM isn’t. Another double standard against guys.


  38. One thing I think you’ve missed is the definition of Maturity. Well, how do you define it?


  39. It’s hard to define maturity in positive language, far easier to define what mature is not.

    My attempt: Maturity means accepting responsibility for one’s own choices and actions, having the perseverance to work to improve things even as you realize they are not ideal, having self-restraint and self-control, and knowing that others don’t view things the same way you do and taking that into account in your affairs.

    Now for the easier way: “I can’t do what I want because I’m being repressed by the Patriarchy” would not be a mature statement.


  40. Can I just make it never clear I never said (or implied) anything about the level of maturity of the average black person?

    As I previously stated, my example was meant to illustrate how making an in-group generalisation is equally offensive (to me at least) when phrased as a metaphor.

    I shouldn’t have used the example (due to the potential for misinterpretation) but my point is still valid.

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