The Rawness

By the way, do you believe that there exist men who combine the best of “alpha” and “beta” traits? For instance, a man who is smart, charismatic, confident, physically strong, but also a great provider, kind, sympathetic and faithful to his woman?

I don’t equate being a jerk with being alpha. I don’t think being a great provider, kind, sympathetic and faithful to his woman makes a man beta either. I think being alpha just comes down to being a natural leader, exuding confidence, demanding respect, being okay with confrontation and being comfortable in your own skin. One can be an alpha provider just as well as one can be a beta provider. The only difference is that with the beta provider, there is less natural attraction at play, he is not a leader and he is often something of a henpecked whipping boy in his relationships. His ability to provide is his only way of getting and keeping a woman.

The problem I think is that men who are both alpha AND able to be good providers, smart, sympathetic and faithful are so rare in a our society that they are the ultimate prize, a rare gem (think Paul Newman). It’s similar to how it’s hard to find a woman who is smoking hot AND smart and down to earth too: they exist, but they’re a rare breed.

I don’t think that alphas have to be caddish assholes, it’s just that caddish assholes are more likely to have alpha qualities than your average “nice guy” who is only nice because he feels that is his only way to get women. Also, well-rounded alphas who have leadership skills but are still good, considerate people are such a prize that they are unattainable to the average woman, so the average woman often has to settle for the badboy or jerk, who is often a flawed, but more attainable type of alpha.

T, you are right on about the Norah Vincent book. Actually she was on the Howard Stern show after it published to talk about it. One thing that she talked about, something that surprised while being a man, was the attitude that women copped (sp?) when he would “approach”.

Many times, the look on their faces was one of near disgust. Like, why are you coming to talk to me.

She said that she rarely felt nervous approaching other women in her normal lesbian life, but as a man, WITH NOTHING TO LOSE, she could easily feel the anxiety build.

However, I disagree about The Office. Hear me out:
Almost all of the guys in the cubicle part of the office are either “betas” or weirdos. And they are all losers.

The guys that work in the warehouse, especially Darryl, all express at least some traditional masculinity. And they are rarely the butt of the jokes.

Also, Michael, the main character, obviously needs to be liked. And looks to ingratiate himself to many, though, often putting his foot in his mouth. He wants to be loved by everyone. The result is that he is rarely LIKED and never respected.

His long-term girlfriedn actually cuckolded him in possibly the worst way. She went to a sperm bank while they were still dating. She barely felt bad about it and then invited him to help her during her Lamaze courses.

Actually, I think that the show is one of the best for showing what gets respect and what doesn’t.

I don’t equate being a jerk with being alpha. I don’t think being a great provider, kind, sympathetic and faithful to his woman makes a man beta either.

I do not either, but the reason why I bring up the juxtaposition of “alpha traits” and “beta traits” is because on some PUA blogs, the very act of “caring for” or “loving” a woman is said to be “beta.” Is this truly a fine line to be walking?

You quoted: “People see weakness in a woman and their first impulse is to protect and nurture and help her.” In my opinion, a man who is a leader type, intelligent, has good survival instincts, with the capability of protecting, nurturing and helping a woman is alpha. An alpha will broadcast that he is able. See this article:

http://www.psychologytoday.com.....-4557.html

Pick-Up Artists have taken the word for their own, calling themselves Alphas.

This is true. The PUA community elevates to the status of “alpha” any man who is successful at picking up women rather than successful among men. But my own impression of this is that men who undergo personal transformation and are unabashed in pursuing what they want tend to get other men’s respect, so perhaps in a way it is another route to being an “alpha,” albeit in a more limited community.

I think there is a bit of “creation” of hierarchy that goes on with alphas, too. Some men prefer to make their own social orders, groups and organizations when faced with hierarchies that they see as difficult to break into, like the corporate ladder or politics. In the case of the PUA community, it seems to be a bit incongruent. Is it really confidence-building to base a large cache of one’s self-worth on “hot notches” rather than other accomplishments? A lot of PUA bloggers seem creepy to me, and their confidence seems different than what, for example, a military general might have.

I think being alpha just comes down to being a natural leader, exuding confidence, demanding respect, being okay with confrontation and being comfortable in your own skin.

These are not necessarily qualities that one is “born” with, although being biologically taller, stronger and having faster reflexes and sharper instincts might give a man an edge. The definition given above of an alpha male as a man with “physical prowess, but also confidence and attitude” seems like it could describe certain “betas” that are “overcompensating” as well.

I have known leader types who are egotistical maniacs that destroy their organizations with their rude behavior (attitude), cockiness (confidence) and verbal aggression (not physical prowess, since this does not happen so much in the modern working world). The impression I get from these men is that they are not truly alpha. They must intimidate other men through organizational control (threats of firing or “writing an employee up”) into following them, rather than through their persuasion, charisma or natural leadership. Perhaps that is the wrong impression?

The problem I think is that men who are both alpha AND able to be good providers, smart, sympathetic and faithful are so rare in a our society that they are the ultimate prize, a rare gem

I absolutely agree with this. My own grandfather was a good provider, smart, caring…but not faithful. I think some women have taken mental shortcuts which equate being unfaithful and treating a woman poorly with being alpha (e.g. JFK and his philandering ways). The ultimate prize is rare for sure, but one would imagine that to get the beautiful woman who is also smart and down to earth, the man should also be the rarer type of alpha rather than the typical.

But, basically, it is the cow thing. They have already achieved their ultimate accomplishment.

Is it the ultimate accomplishment?

I notice that a lot of them seem to get into this mood for “love,” wanting a really nice and sweet girl who “loves” him and whom he “loves” in return. Idealization of romance, in other words. But the amount of introspection, wisdom, sacrifice and hard work that is needed to cultivate and continue such love is immense.

“Don’t buy the cow when you get the milk for free”

Getting sex is easy, but genuine connection and intimacy which comes from love is much more difficult. I think the “cow” analogy is rather focused on the physical aspect, but a full human being needs to develop the body, the mind, the heart and the spirit to really flourish. Most people in this culture focus on only the body, and a few people on the mind, but the rest are left neglected.

As for betas, they are the ones that can’t choose whether to give or take. They want to be nice guys but they also want to get some. But they don’t know how, so they end up doing disgusting compromises like (easiest example but I bet you could think of tons more) befriending girls in order to get in their pants.. Say what?

I notice that a lot of them seem to get into this mood for “love,” wanting a really nice and sweet girl who “loves” him and whom he “loves” in return.

Just because some guy is smart enough to learn game, does not mean he is smart enough to understand the conundrum (”If I can game her, then, she can probably be gamed by anyone. Therefore, she is not that seet thing that I am looking for”.)

Also, lots of people talk about Love. It is a very easy word to throw around.

Getting sex is easy…

For a minority of men.

I think the “cow” analogy is rather focused on the physical aspect…

Welcome to the minds of men. Don’t get too freaked out by it. Just because we are dogs, does not mean that we can not be BETTER dogs.

Most people in this culture focus on only the body…

It used to be just the guys that were superficial morons…now it is everyone. Whooray! Equality!

This is true. The PUA community elevates to the status of “alpha” any man who is successful at picking up women rather than successful among men.

it’s called skipping the middleman.

Getting sex is easy, but genuine connection and intimacy which comes from love is much more difficult.

bullshit.

Naturally when rewards are out of reach the focus is turned on hedonistic pursuits and narcissism.

when the knowledge that there is nothing after this life became widespread, hedonism was the only logical answer.

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Also, some people have pointed out to me that they think the clip is fake. I do think a lot of Maury’s paternity tests are fake and scripted, but to me this one is just too ridiculous to be fake. I think if they were going to fake a paternity test, they’d want to keep it as plausible as possible. Counterintuitive as it sounds, I think that clip is real simply because it seems too stupid and unbelievable to make up and try to pass off as real. I consider it one of those “truth is stranger than fiction” moments…

It seems to me that the really sad thing about feminism is that it actually denigrated all things feminine, as women emulated masculinity rather than try to embrace their femininity, which is still suppressed. Real feminine energy has been lost, and what replaced it is still masculinity (for example: women are encouraged to act slutty which is a male thing to do, or are encouraged to be assertive which is a male thing to do). The balance is lost, because this society has become almost entirely masculine. Perhaps that is why some of you look for foreign women, who come from backgrounds that still have an intuitive understanding of the feminine and masculine energies needing to be in balance.

I may not always agree with you Hope, but I must admit that when you’re on point, you’re really on point.

However — and this may be just from my admittedly limited vantage point — all the money, drugs, booze, sex and materialistic goods do not seem to be making people inwardly happy.

This is possibly a semantic issue, but, do not search for happiness. Search for Satisfaction.

Parents do not stay up all night with their crying infant because it makes them happy. They, well, she, nurses the child back to health because it provides them with satisfaction. The Wife and Mother needs a crib for the child, well, the husband gets to work on one.

He builds it, with that normal “Shut the fuck up unless you are willing to help me build this thing” focus that guys get. He builds it. He is satisfied.

Wife looks at it and sees that it is sturdy. She puts her precious child in the crib to sleep the night away.

She is satisfied. She has a good man.

24 months later, she starts looking at her man and twirling her hair. She is giggling for no good reason. Smiling, playing coy. She has all sorts of games.

Her man is not bursting at the seams. He has her in his sights and he approaches like a slow-moving, heat-seeking missile.

At this moment, do you think he (or she) is looking for happiness, or satisfaction.

Like I said, it is probably a small semantic issue, but one that I think is important.

“It strikes me as creepy when I detect that incongruence in people.”

Incongruence comes off as creepy because we have an innate sense to detect it. Which is why, despite their efforts, car salesmen come off as sleazy instead of well-intentioned. And on the other hand, wannabes that front quickly find their facades collapse. Whether we choose to listen to our sense or not is the question, which is why people are often taken advantage of. An interesting topic to explore would be Paul Ekman’s studies on facial recognition.

“Those extreme cases you mentioned are powerful for sure, but there seems to be more there than just give and take. I’m not so sure that all serial killers who were solely dedicated to “taking” or all those solely focused on “giving” were able to command “worship.” Historical figures that become legendary are few and far between, but there were far more “alphas” than what we can remember.”

You should re-read what I wrote. I said people most devoted to one polarity were the ones most capable of affecting change, not that they were worthy of worship. And the fact that historical figures are legendary is why I brought them up, they are the alphas of the alphas. But your ordinary alpha will likely have a similar mindset as well. As we can detect incongruence, we can also detect congruence. A man speaking with passion and zeal is much more powerful than one without it.

Thanks T.

Ian Lewis, it is possible that the shy, awkward man has too much outward femininity (shyness being a traditionally feminine trait that has been forgotten among the “modern and hip” womenfolk). There is a difference between not talking a lot out of shyness or not talking a lot because of internal calm. A man can be “quiet and mysterious” without seeming feminine. You see, the behaviors are similar, but the mental states are different.

I also question the honesty angle with respect to that behavior, because he is probably not that quiet among his male friends. I hang out with a lot of nerdy and probably socially awkward men, and they engage in video game talk with their peers as fluently as sports guys might talk about the latest scores.

I’m with you on the happiness verbiage. Perhaps a better alternative would be “feeling fulfilled,” as it seems more a quiet kind of contentment rather than a rush of euphoria all the time.

“It is interesting that you used the word passion, because that is usually seen as something from the heart.”

From the heart slash soul is exactly where I believe passion comes from. Passion being your motive behind your actions. And I believe the two ultimate motives, when you simplify everything, are to act in order to give, or take. When we vacillate between them, they compete and cancel each other out. But if we consciously work from one side, than our actions and motives work synergistically to promote our growth.

“I do believe that physical, mental, emotional and spiritual balance/congruence are all necessary to be a well-rounded (or maybe alpha) human being.”

That’s what they taught me in 7th grade P.E.

(Woops, I left that unfinished)

There is a big difference between the guy that is calm, cool and collected and the shy, awkward guy.

Remember, at least from technically capable men, that awkwardness is a sign of testosterone, not estrogen. He is able to remain quite and focus for very long periods all alone. This is not femininity.

Also, for a lot of PUAs, I suspect, going after a real accomplishment would actually get in the way of their PUA-ness. Too much time learning calculus and not enough time gaming chicks.

if you are a pua with real accomplishments under your belt - especially real accomplishments that have resulted in some tangible measure of success - you have probably learned to hide them.

you see, there are two parts to being a pickup artist:
(1) pickup artist
(2) breakup artist / ditch artist

tangible accomplishments make #2 way, way, way more difficult.
one danger of the pua game - in fact probably its biggest danger, provided you don’t play with i.v. junkies or other aids-infested demographics* - is that of becoming the prey of scary, hell-bent, stalker-type girls. the best way to allay that danger is to make sure that those girls have nothing to stalk: i.e., either downplay tangible accomplishments or eschew them altogether.

a couple of the most successful players i know have thriving careers - one is even an entrepreneur who’s about to become a millionaire - but publicizing that information would only serve to hurt their playerness.

They rack up these accomplishments in hopes that …

Let me finish that sentence for you, “hoping that these accomplishments would bring them everything.”.

Society needs farms, so we would farm.
Society needs iron, so we would become blacksmiths.
Society needs maps, so we would …etc.

So, did society NEED Casanova? Nope. Which is probably why he needed to employ stealth to “accomplish” anything.

A man’s drive to accomplish something used to mean so much. Now, it may be a sign that he is a “beta”. Too much time in the lab, not enough time at Da Club.

And, like Johnny said, actualy real-world accomplishments can actually hurt you in the dating game.

…because for many of them, once they master women and start racking up numbers, their motivation switches to revenge and getting back at hot women for all the ones that played them when they were growing up.

You knwo, we need a modern equivelant for “Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned”. But, from the beta-revenge POV.

I have been to a lot of online forums and chatrooms (also voice chat like ventrilo/teamspeak) for programming languages, computer games, atheism/philosophy, etc., and the verbal pushing and testing is constant.

Ah, but that is not “hanging out”. That is, even in some forums, anonymous. And, this is important, the geek can take as long as he wants to respond.

I am talking about plain old human interactions.

Similarly, the type of sports chat you get on internet forums is waaay different than what you at the bar.

But if that focus and intelligence is shown in a man’s outward demeanor they can actually work to his favor.

Right, if he knows how to express it. Many, though not all, fall into two types:
1. Those that express their thoughts and feelings, with bad results
2. Those that are more inward.

But, yes, some know how to do it.

Charisma just oozes out of him in spades.

Good for him. For most, though, it is logic that oozes out. Pure, hard, cold logic. Charisma has nothing to do with logic. Charisma involves sensing and feeling…timing and “presenting” yourself. Good for those that are both hyper-logical and charismatic. They are the few.

They rack up these accomplishments in hopes that …

Let me finish that sentence for you, “hoping that these accomplishments would bring them everything.”.

Society needs farms, so we would farm.
Society needs iron, so we would become blacksmiths.
Society needs maps, so we would …etc.

A man’s drive to accomplish something used to mean so much.

I think to answer this, I’ve got to refer to the great James Brown and the song “It’s a man’s world”:

“This is a man’s world, this is a man’s world
But it wouldn’t be nothing, nothing without a woman or a girl

You see, man made the cars to take us over the road
Man made the trains to carry heavy loads
Man made electric light to take us out of the dark
Man made the boat for the water, like Noah made the ark

This is a man’s, a man’s, a man’s world
But it wouldn’t be nothing, nothing without a woman or a girl

Man thinks about a little baby girls and a baby boys
Man makes then happy ’cause man makes them toys
And after man has made everything, everything he can
You know that man makes money to buy from other man

This is a man’s world
But it wouldn’t be nothing, nothing without a woman or a girl

He’s lost in the wilderness
He’s lost in bitterness”

Yes men invented almost everything that improved society, but they did it for two reasons: to survive and reproduce. But especially the latter. Accomplishments made you the “star” or one of the alpha males of your community. This status advertised security and protection to potential mates and got the alpha male his pick of best when it came to women. Getting the best possible mate has always been the ultimate prize, and men used accomplishments to get that grand prize.

And historically it used to work, since women had less education, much less earning potential and really counted on their husband’s status to live and raise children. Now since feminism, women can make thier own money and support themselves better and have their own advanced degrees, so a man having accomplishments doesn’t have the same weight it used to. You can find a ton of guys with decent jobs and advanced degrees these days now that college is the norm. So these guys are going for credentials and accomplishments because they worked for their fathers and grandfathers back in the day, only to find that today’s woman doesn’t really care as much anymore. Nowadays game is much rarer than credentials.

But I firmly believe that if accomplishments didn’t historically get men pussy and he could get laid by sitting on his ass, men wouldn’t have invented half the shit they invented.

To bring it back to your comment, I think people back then were just as shallow as now and that the true main reason a man’s drive to accomplish used to mean so much back in the day is because it got him sex. Since women can get their own accomplishments now, a man’s accomplishments don’t go as far as they used to in getting men sex, and that’s the main reason why a man’s accomplishments mean less today.

It seems to me that the really sad thing about feminism is that it actually denigrated all things feminine, as women emulated masculinity rather than try to embrace their femininity, which is still suppressed. Real feminine energy has been lost, and what replaced it is still masculinity (for example: women are encouraged to act slutty which is a male thing to do, or are encouraged to be assertive which is a male thing to do). The balance is lost, because this society has become almost entirely masculine.

I couldn’t of said it better myself… As John Eldredge puts it I also hate it when on Oprah they bitch and moan about “where have all the real men gone.” as he wants to get up and throw things at the television screaming “You told them all to be women.” Both roles male and female are attempting to be reversed today… or simply make everything gender neutral in attempt to ignore the fact that we are inherently different at a physical, mental, and spiritual level.

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Been exploring your site for about 30 minutes, enjoying the articles and the comments because they resonate with good-natured and intelligent consideration.

Then I found this post featuring Joy Division’s ‘Love Will Tear Us Apart.’ My number one favorite song ever.

Thanks!

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I’m sorry but I just came back from Europe a week ago and you guys really have no place accusing anyone of having degrading shows. I’ve seen your reality shows and they blew my mind.