Madonna/Whore Complexes, Part 3

Part 1
Part 2

Let me warn you now, this is going to be long. But I’m sure you’re used to that by now. Besides, it’s not like I update this thing daily so cut me some slack. I just didn’t feel like having this spill into a part 4, I just want to finish out the series and move on.

If you haven’t read the first two parts I suggest you do so now. This last installment discussed why men who don?t grow up suffering from madonna/whore complexes tend to be naturally better with women and sexual relationships. This installment is about why men who do have extreme madonna/whore complex anxieties are often horrible with women.

To start, where does the madonna/whore complex originate from? To understand that, you have to understand the nature of female power. As stated in the book Anatomy of Female Power by Chinweizu:

Female power exists; it hangs over every man like a ubiquitous. shadow.
Indeed, the life cycle of man, from cradle to grave, may be divided into
three phases, each of which is defined by the form of female power
which dominates him: mother power, bridepower, or wifepower.

From birth to puberty, he is ruled by motherpower, as exercised over
him by his one and only “mummy dearest”. Then he passes into the
territory of bridepower, as exercised over him by his bride-to-be, that
cuddlesome and tender wench he feels he cannot live without. This
phase lasts from puberty to that wedding day when the last of his
potential brides finally makes herself his wife. He then passes into the
domain of wifepower, as exercised over him by his own resident
matriarch, alias his darling wife. This phase lasts till he is either
divorced, widowed or dead.

In each phase, female power is established over him through his
peculiar weakness in that stage of his life. Motherpower is established
over him while he is a helpless infant. Bridepower holds sway over him
through his great need for a womb in which to procreate; if he didn’t
feel this need, he wouldn’t put himself into the power of any owner of a
womb. Wifepower is established over him through his craving to appear
as lord and master of some woman’s nest; should he dispense with this
vanity, not even the co-producer of his child could hold him in her nest
and rule him.

There are five conditions which enable women to get what they want
from men: women’s control of the womb; women’s control of the
kitchen; women’s control of the cradle; the psychological immaturity of
man relative to woman; and man’s tendency to be deranged by his own
excited penis. These conditions are the five pillars of female power;
they are decisive for its dominance over male power. Though each is
recognized in popular jokes and sayings, their collective significance is
rarely noted.

There is a joke which goes thus:

1st woman: The way to a man’s heart is through his belly.
2nd woman: Aren’t you aiming a few inches too high?

This joke pays tribute to how the womb and the kitchen control the
feelings of men. A man can be controlled by the hunger in his belly, and
by the other hunger which flares up just below his belly. Consequently,
he can be manipulated by whoever controls the kitchen which feeds him,
or by whoever carries the womb through which he craves to procreate.

That man abandons the kitchen to woman, and grovels for access to
a womb, are not ordained by nature or by god, but result from how
woman, who controls the cradle, has chosen to condition boys and girls.
We must remember the saying that “the hand that rocks the cradle is
the hand that rules the world”. That is so because whoever tram. s a
child in its first years shapes it for life. Woman, who rules the nursery,
shapes boys and girls for life; and the ways in which she shapes boys
make them what they become as men.

The more your mother can master female power on all these fronts, the more power she will have on her sons. If you have a mother who is properly exercising her power over the kitchen by cooking, is exercising her bridepower by displaying the behavior of a good wife, has much more psychological maturity in comparison to the man of the house and is responsibly exercising her power over the cradle, what you have is a very powerful woman. She can shape and mold the kids at will. She can wrap the father around her finger because she’s a trophy. Her son sees her as an asexual saint, a perfect woman.

But the boy grows up seeing only a small part of his mother. He never sees her flaws. Even if it’s not just a front and she really is almost flawless now, the boy doesn’t see the road she took to get to her current state. Maybe she was a little bitchier and stuck on herself when she was younger and hot and hanging out with the cool kids in school. He doesn’t see how cruelly she may have used, chewed up and spit out beta males, brokesters and nerds who were trying to date her during her high school and college years. She may have sucked a jock’s dick once or twice behind the bleachers in high school. Or maybe she cheated on a boyfriend once or twice in her lifetime before she met your dad. Or maybe she cheated on your dad once and no one ever found out. Or maybe she is utterly loyal to your dad and does none of those bad things but is just an absolute freak in the bed and was doing all types of kinky stuff with your dad with sick toys and getting every opening used and abused. I mean, you truly never totally know who your mom was before you were born, and especially before she met your dad. This is how the madonna part of the madonna/whore equation gets created.

Another great passage from Chinweizu:

Many a son is only vaguely aware of being ruled, through such precise techniques, by his mummy dearest. A vague awareness makes
it unlikely that he will ever stand up to his mother; and even if, by some miracle, he did, he is not likely to battle effectively against a power he hardly understands. With a daughter, matters are different. As her mother’s apprentice, a daughter learns the game, is privy to its techniques, and could effectively counter her mother’s moves if she got up the courage. The result of such knowledge is that the average daughter can, at some point, shake off her mother’s authority, whereas the ignorant son cannot. Her hold over him usually lasts till his death; even if she dies before him, her hold is maintained through his ingrained desire to please her memory.

The classic example of the man who is ruled all his life by his mother is the great macho dictator presented in so many Latin American novels, most notably in Gabriel Garcia Marquez’s The Autumn of the Patriarch. Though a bloodthirsty and ruthless dictator; though a generalissimo and the everlasting patriarch of his nation, he always felt for his mother the obedient, babyish awe he learned to feel for her when he fed at her breast.

But what is motherpower used for? The primary objectives of motherpower are to prepare boys so they can be ruled by their future
wives, and to train girls to rule their future husbands. To this end, the main tasks of motherpower are these:

1) to lay the appropriate personality foundations in the children:
narcissism in girls, and heroism in boys:
2) to secure kitchen power and cradle power for girls; and
3) to magnify wombpower hy teaching sexual restraint to girls,
through codes of modesty, while undermining sexual self-control in boys
by addicting them to the female body.

Consider a”beautiful girl and a strong boy. When they are successfully reared by motherpower, they mature into their respective genderideals: the dolly bird and the macho. To bring this about, the girl is taught self-worship or narcissism; the boy heroism or self-sacrifice. Her narcissism induces an absolute self-centredness which smothers those self-sacrificing impulses which are fostered in the boy by male codes of honour, gallantry and heroism. When they grow up, the dolly.bird will worship herself; but the macho willworship woman and serve her, even to the point of sacrificing his life to preserve hers.

The future dolly bird is trained in narcissism.on the principle that a woman must worship herself if she is to inspire worship, and so elicit service from men. Narcissism is taught her by everything around her. The general admiration she receives is explained to her, in the American case, by the children’s verse which says:

Sugar and spice and everything nice
Are what little girls are made of.

For good measure, the verse concludes with a thorough devaluation of boys:

Snakes and snails and puppy dog tails
That’s what little boys are made of.

This doctrine is reinforced by the sort of admonitions a girl is usually given: that “boys want only one thing” – the jewel box between her thighs – “and nice girls don’t give it to them”; 29 that her virginity is precious; that to lost”:it before marriage is to dishonour the family; that it must be protected by all, and defended, even to their death, by her male relatives. The general message – that she is precious beyond measure – is driven home by the behaviour of mothers and fathers who mount guard over their daughter, jealously protecting their property’s value. Now, whose sense of her worth would not be inflated by such fussing? Whose sense of self-preservation would not be made absolute by such protectiveness?

A beautiful girl so brought up (and all the others who take her as the model of womanhood) inevitably gets the notion that she must be worth all the gold in the world and more; that she is god’s gift to all male humanity. By the time puberty arrives to trigger her nest-making drives, she has already acquired that narcissism which will guide her conduct as maiden, wife, mother, widow and dowager.

The narcissist personality is what makes a woman take it as a matter of course that a man should offer goods and services to her for her contribution to their joint sexual pleasure. He gives her pleasure, she gives him pleasure, but he pays: to her, that is fair! The narcissist personality is what makes a peasant girl of 15take it as quite natural that a general or tycoon three times her age should lay all his hard-won power and riches at her feet when he courts her. It does not occur to her to ask if she is worth such tribute: she knows, in her wombsure narcissism, that she is worth much more, that she holds the most precious thing in her suitor’s world, and should be paid for it with all that he has in the world. This narcissist personality enables a divorced
woman to have no doubt that it is fair for her to collect alimony for services she no longer renders to her ex-husband.

Whereas the mother equips the future dolly bird with a narcissist personality, she equips the future macho with a heroic personality. The hero is a servant who performs extraordinary duties for family, community or humanity: as warrior or protector, as organizer of wealth, or as bringer of vital knowledge. He is, at heart, a sentimental fool who takes great risks, carries out great labours, all in exchange for such vanities as medals, ribbons, statues, and being mentioned in talk and song.

In the course of his training, the future macho is taught to regard women as the weaker sex, to adore dolly birds, and to consider it heroic to provide for and protect his womenfolk. He is also taught that being given a beautiful woman to husband is the most precious reward for heroism. If he is a Fulani or Maasai herdsman in Africa, he learns that lesson from the flogging contests whose victors are rewarded with admiration and love by beautiful maidens. If he will fight and be wounded to earn a wreath; if he willfight and die for posthumous praise; how much more will the macho sacrifice to earn a beautiful bride? It is in this way that he acquires that heroic personality which seeks wealth, honour, power and fame with which to pay for the love of a woman.

This woman-fixated personality makes a macho consider it right and proper for him to give a woman sexual pleasure and pay her too. It prevents a love-smitten general or tycoon from entertaining the thought that the strumpet he is wooing might not be worth one millionth of what he is deliriously offering her for the right to help her put her womb to work.

These two types of personality (heroic macho and narcissist dolly bird) are complementary in serving female power. Narcissism imbues the dolly bird with a sense of her natural right to be worshipped and served by men; heroism imbues the macho with a sense of his natural duty to serve women. She displays the self-confidence and self-centredness appropriate to an absolute ruler; he the self-diffidence and self-sacrifice of a loyal serf. When a boy so trained and a girl so trained do encounter, isn’t it obvious who shall rule who?

Mothers who are great at creating the madonna image are experts in reputation management. They put up a great front. But think back to my piece on “face management.” Is the face that she portrays to you the same face she sees in herself? What is her core like? For example there can be two guys driving an identical Mercedes-Benz. They have the same front. They’re both “fronting” equally. But one guy is so rich he bought his by paying in full up front and he has a special garage he uses to park it next to his small mansion. The other guy lives at home or in an apartment with three roommates, lives from check to check at a shitty job and had to take out a huge note he can barely afford to front in that car. Both are fronting equally, but their cores are radically different.

If even adults can get fooled by people whose faces don’t match or whose strong fronts are masking totally weak cores, what chances do children have of spotting such inconsistencies? None. Children take what they see at face value. Maybe the son’s mother really was always virtuous her whole life. Maybe she only became virtuous later in life after spending her youth as a celebrity groupie or as a human sperm receptacle for neighborhood bad boys. Or maybe his mother is still secretly slutting it up without her husband or children know it. Regardless of what the truth is, the son only sees the virtuous front. The “naturals” with women I discussed in the earlier installments are men who at a young age had the illusion created by the front broken and got a glimpse of their mother’s less virtuous core. As a result of this early disillusionment they learned to not put women on a pedestal. I just used virtue as one example, but it could also be mental or emotional weakness. The boy who grows up believing his mother is of extraordinary mental or emotional strength can easily grow up to have a madonna/whore complex. The natural, like Ahmed in our previous installments, could be someone who learned early that his mother was much weaker emotionally and mentally than he initially believed and became disillusioned by that.

Picture a boy who never breaks through his mother’s perfect “front.” Growing up she always knows when he is lying. She always catches him when he sneaks his hand into the cookie jar. He begins to think she has supreme intuition and is all-knowing and wise. He not only grows up continuing to believe her divine omniscience and intuition, he extrapolates such traits to all women and begins to deify them. What he doesn’t realize is that the reason she always knows he is lying, the reason she always catches him in his mistakes, the reason she always seems two steps ahead of him is because he was a child. He was ridiculously easy to outsmart.

There is a story about circus elephants in fires that I read in a self-help book and I don’t know if it’s actually true or not, but it teaches a great lesson regardless. Supposedly baby circus elephants can be kept in place with nothing more than a stake driven into the ground and a rope. The baby circus elephant tries with all its might to pull out the stake hour after hour, day after day, to no avail. After a while, it accepts the fact that it will never be able to uproot the stake and stops trying. As it grows to its full size, it becomes powerful enough to pull out the stake with ease, but because it has been conditioned as a baby to believe it can’t pull out the stake. So strong is this belief that there are even records of circus fires where elephants tied to the stake stayed put, died and were burnt to a crisp when they could easily have uprooted the stake and escaped with their lives. So strong is that limiting belief that even to save their own lives they won’t even attempt to pull out the stake. The man with the madonna/whore complex is the elephant who never learns the truth about the nature of the stake and the rope. The “natural” who doesn’t worship women and put them on pedestals is an elephant who discovered early on that he could now pull out the stake after all.

Men with madonna/whore complexes are men who so buy into the myth of an infallible, asexual mother that they look to recreate her in their life partner. Since their mother image is so perfect and devoid of all whorish traits, anyone who does anything to break this idealized model must automatically fall into the whore category. They compartmentalize all women into two categories, the “madonna” like their mother or the “whore,” Ginger or Mary-Ann, not being aware that most women have traits of both the madonna and the whore coexisting in them to varying degrees. It’s hard for them to accept any middle ground. In very extreme cases, any woman who seems to enjoy sex too much period becomes a whore in their eyes. The problem is, every man and every woman has a social civilized side to them and a primitive, savage side, and both sides demand feeding. So while the madonna satisfies a man’s social needs as mother to his children and lady he can take around on his arm with pride, he finds his primal side incredibly bored and unfulfilled by the vanilla sex he has with his madonna. Even if the madonna wants to try to be less vanilla in the bedroom he won’t allow it because he has an illusion to preserve, and if she breaks it she is no longer the reincarnation of his mother. So he then finds himself seeking out women to fulfill the whore role for him, whether in porn, in prostitutes, in freak mistresses.

A perfect example of this is the Sicilian-American gangster, as typified by the tv show “The Sopranos.” Sicilians are very much a matriarchal society. Few cultures idealize the mother figure as much as Sicilians do. And if you watch the show, every single one of the Sicilian-American gangsters has a “gumar” or mistress that fills the exciting whore role for him, and does all the things that satisfy his primal side that he is not comfortable with the mother of his children, who is basically a proxy for his own mother, doing. Another great example of this dynamic is John Leguizamo’s Sicilian-American character in the movie “Summer of Sam.”

Like men, women also have a social, civilized side and a primal, savage side. One of the great ironies of the madonna/whore dynamic is that these men who are paranoid about keeping their wives virtuous end up only satisfying their madonna wives’ virtuous sides, which can cause them to grow bored and desire adventure, which can often drive them to cheat in an effort to satisfy their own primal sides. Many bored housewife affairs begin like this. Casanova for example understood this dynamic and targeted many of these types of wives, who on the surface would seem too virtuous to cheat. Thus by trying to create the perfect woman who would never cheat, men often create the perfect conditions to awaken the urge to cheat in their madonna wives.

People put their “good girl” on a pedestal, are afraid to do anything kinky with her for fear of defiling her or making her “filthy,” which ends up boring her and just leaves her open to swept off her feet by some cad willing to bang her like a beast and give her a sense of adventure. History’s biggest rakes like Casanova were able to succeed in defiling so many mens’ “respectable” wives primarily because their husbands bought into this good girl, bad girl Madonna/Whore thing, which (1) caused them to let their guards down too much because they were overconfident about their wife’s purity and (2) created a profound boredom in the woman, making her into a bird in a gilded cage vulnerable to the promises of sexual abandon and romantic adventure the rake provides.

This is why one of the worst pieces of advice women often receive is to find a man who adores his mother. There are plenty of guys out there who love their mothers and treat the women in their lives like shit. The Sicilian-American gangsters for example. Or some of the worst criminals and cheaters around. There are some mentally and physically abusive men who absolutely adore their mothers. There have been bloodthirsty dictators and killers whose mothers can do no wrong in their eyes. This is because such a guy was raised to revere his mom way excessively, which caused him to want to recreate her in his wife. And since he naively believes his mom to be some unerotic saint who never had a whorish thought in her life and only had sex to procreate and please her husband, he foolishly tries to recreate this imaginary ideal in his wife, who also foolishly encourages this saintly myth because she knows that’s how to get him to marry her. But chances are it wasn’t 100% true in his mom’s case and it’s not 100% true in his good girl’s case. It’s a cliched cycle that’s been repeating itself since the beginning of time. Even his actual mom, if he knew every dirty secret about her, probably couldn’t even live up to this ideal. So either he gets disappointed by his wife’s lack of perfection because unlike when his mom created her perfect front, he is no longer a naive child and is harder to fool, and he takes it out on her either aggressively or passive-aggressively each time she shows any defect that doesn’t conform to his madonna ideal. Or he does totally buy into his wife’s madonna front just like he bought into his own mother’s, and with his social, civilized needs met at home he ends up seeking out ways to satisfy his primal, savage needs through porn, dominatrices, hookers, mistresses, whatever. Meanwhile she’s unhappy because she’s only getting half her needs met at home as well, her social, civilized needs.

Another problem that happens is when the former mama’s boy becomes a late-bloomer ladies’ man. It becomes the sexual equivalent of finding out that Santa Claus isn’t real at 30 instead of at 10. The kid who discovers that Santa Claus isn’t real at 10 doesn’t take it so hard and doesn’t grow up with a chip on his shoulder about it, but I’d imagine the guy who finds out at 30 the hard way is going to feel like a fool, be pretty pissed off and have a chip on his shoulder about it. You find a similar phenomenon with “natural” ladies’ men versus late-bloomer ladies’ men who learn to understand and game women later in life. Both can understand a woman’s flaws, but the natural ladies’ man has more of an acceptance of womens’ somewhat mercenary natures, even if only a begrudging acceptance, and doesn’t dwell on them. He’s learned to adjust to their flaws early, and sometimes can even learn to appreciate them on some level and see past them to some positives. The late-bloomer, or former beta, because he feels like he’s been lied to so long and thinks of all the grief and embarassment and heartache he could have avoided for so long, obsesses over the mercenary nature of many women and the many ways they can be less than virtuous because he feels like it’s more of a betrayal, and a deeper and more recent one than whatever the natural ladies’ man may have experienced. So for him, he develops a mission statement of revenge against women. He goes from dividing all women into madonnas and whores to just lumping them all into the whore category, or at least over 80% of them. His life becomes a giant exercise of confirmation bias looking to gather more evidence of women’s whorish and mercenary ways, which just feeds into his self-righteous sense of betrayal even more, which then motivates him to search out even more evidence, aaaaannnd….vicious circle. I think every late-bloomer needs to go through this stage at some point to properly exorcise his formerly beta male ways, but this stage should be a means to a better end, and not an end in and of itself. Men who never move past this phase end up becoming toxic to everyone.

There’s a great article here about this phenomenon, talking about how men can change once they get some game later in life by joining the seduction community:

Trading one set of misguided ideas about women for another
Before they get into the Community, the typical guy has beliefs about women such as:

  • Women are special, beautiful creatures.
  • Women need to be saved and protected.
  • Women need to be loved and nurtured.
  • You need to make women feel special.
  • Women need to be wined and dined and romanced.
  • Women want nice guys.
  • Women don’t like sex.

A little too naive and romantic in other words. Then they get into the Community and before long they’ve been exposed to ideas like:

  • Women are flaky and unreliable.
  • Women are emotional and illogical.
  • Women only live in the emotion of the moment, do what feels good at the time, and justify their actions to themselves after the fact.
  • Women are manipulative and use guys for free drinks and dinners.
  • Women are fickle and have short attention spans.
  • Women are self-centered and self-interested.
  • Women primarily go to clubs for attention and validation from men.
  • Women constantly test men, try to devalue them, and try to make them jump through hoops.
  • Women try to make men suck up to them and put them on a pedestal.
  • Women think their pussies are made of gold and sell them to the highest bidder.
  • Women don’t know what they really want.
  • Women are confused and hypocritical. They’ll profess to dislike whorish behavior then blow a guy in a bathroom that night.
  • Women are programmed to want to get knocked up by an Alpha Male then ensnare an unwitting Beta Male into raising the child for her.
  • Women will cheat on their partners coldly and unemotionally.
  • Women are slaves to how their friends and society sees them. They want to sleep around, but have to be discrete about it.
  • Society’s expectations have given women all kinds of weird hang ups up about sex and hooking up. Their minds are full of strange rationalizations and justifications.
  • Women are powerless to resist the right type of guy. Even if they’re married, they’ll get sucked along.
  • Women are easily manipulated by simple magic tricks and talk of new agey topics.

I’m not saying there’s no truth at all in these statements, of course there’s some. These statements do describe some women, or the way some women act in certain circumstances. But taken as a whole, you gotta admit this set of beliefs is pretty negative, misogynistic even. Just as all women aren’t special creatures that need to be rescued, they aren’t all fickle, emotional, and selfish either. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle, and it depends on the girl. Some girls are really normal and cool and easy to talk to.

You’ve made it to the end of this long-ass post! I’m proud of you fools. 😉 Now was it awesome or was it awesome?

P.S. If you want to download and read Chinweizu’s whole book for yourself, don’t forget to go here.

37 Responses to “Madonna/Whore Complexes, Part 3”

  1. The narcissist personality is what makes a woman take it as a matter of course that a man should offer goods and services to her for her contribution to their joint sexual pleasure. He gives her pleasure, she gives him pleasure, but he pays: to her, that is fair! The narcissist personality is what makes a peasant girl of 15take it as quite natural that a general or tycoon three times her age should lay all his hard-won power and riches at her feet when he courts her. It does not occur to her to ask if she is worth such tribute: she knows, in her wombsure narcissism, that she is worth much more, that she holds the most precious thing in her suitor’s world, and should be paid for it with all that he has in the world. This narcissist personality enables a divorced woman to have no doubt that it is fair for her to collect alimony for services she no longer renders to her ex-husband.

    This entitlement complex has been dialed up to probably historical levels in American women, yet humorously, they have given away those elements which would have engendered their control and narcissism. Most “liberated” women don’t wish to cook or keep house, men have had to learn to do for themselves. Likewise they will leave with your children on a whim, or have them but deny the man his place in as “figurehead” leader. Interesting that at the time they claim to need us least, they have similarly eliminated their ability to hold sway over the man. Sour grapes? Finally, sexual liberation too leads all but the most myopic of us to know that she’s no madonna regardless of what we’ve seen personally.

    The more your mother can master female power on all these fronts, the more power she will have on her sons. If you have a mother who is properly exercising her power over the kitchen by cooking, is exercising her bridepower by displaying the behavior of a good wife, has much more psychological maturity in comparison to the man of the house and is responsibly exercising her power over the cradle, what you have is a very powerful woman. She can shape and mold the kids at will. She can wrap the father around her finger because she’s a trophy. Her son sees her as an asexual saint, a perfect woman.

    I often wonder too about the differences in ability to see through fronts and to view others as frail humans with all their foibles, or to deify them.

    Picture a boy who never breaks through his mother’s perfect “front.” Growing up she always knows when he is lying. She always catches him when he sneaks his hand into the cookie jar. He begins to think she has supreme intuition and is all-knowing and wise. He not only grows up continuing to believe her divine omniscience and intuition, he extrapolates such traits to all women and begins to deify them. What he doesn’t realize is that the reason she always knows he is lying, the reason she always catches him in his mistakes, the reason she always seems two steps ahead of him is because he was a child. He was ridiculously easy to outsmart.

    I’m not sure if it comes from intellect, or emotional intelligence and perceptiveness, but I was one of those kids who took to calling his parents by name around ten years old, pushed the envelope and developed my capacity for deceit and building an identity discrete from and unknown to my parents. I learned early that they were not omnipotent and I used this to my advantage. With women it did take me a few negative experiences and some learning in biology and psychology to realize their mercenary aspect. I did initially reject it and feel betrayed, but the more I learned the more I realized these things are part of our biological inheritance, and if innate and universal, could hardly be things to hold a grudge over. Consequently while I see with clear eyes, I don’t always expect the worst, nor the best, but rather that anything could happen with anyone given the right circumstances and that it’s rarely a personal rejection. It is instead a response to sub-conscious instinctual processes and we are all at risk of succumbing to them. You can hardly hate women for this without hating yourself as well, since deep down you know you have the capacity for infidelity no matter how you try to deny it. Like you said in the combining faces post, I feel a similar process needs to occur in men with the MWC in that if they recognize both ideals are opposite sides of the same coin they can eventually bring them together for a healthy acceptance of the dual nature of women as givers and nurturers, but also as self-interested and mercenary and animalistic. If one wants a longer term relationship, both needs must be fulfilled in the same individual, simple as that.

    alphadominances last blog post..Frame Control: Another pearl of wisdom from David DeAngelo

  2. You always bring a lot of depth and good thought to the topics you write about here. I could say I’m always pleasantly surprised by this but to be honest I just expect it of you now!

    I enjoy the long articles too. People that say a blog post should be under 500 words don’t know jack. A post should be as long as it needs to be to cover the topic–no less.

  3. What’s missing here is the childbearing role and the special vulnerability it imposes on women.

  4. The late-bloomer, or former beta, because he feels like he’s been lied to so long and thinks of all the grief and embarassment and heartache he could have avoided for so long, obsesses over the mercenary nature of many women and the many ways they can be less than virtuous because he feels like it’s more of a betrayal, and a deeper and more recent one than whatever the natural ladies’ man may have experienced. . . . He goes from dividing all women into madonnas and whores to just lumping them all into the whore category, or at least over 80% of them. His life becomes a giant exercise of confirmation bias looking to gather more evidence of women’s whorish and mercenary ways, which just feeds into his self-righteous sense of betrayal even more, which then motivates him to search out even more evidence, aaaaannnd….vicious circle.

    Great a writer as he is, this sounds a lot like Roissy (and many of his commenters). Having been a very late bloomer myself, I can somewhat sympathize. I’ve known too many really cool chicks though to really be a hater.

    However, not all men who do badly with women like their mothers. I fit the pattern, as my mom and I are pretty close and have a great relationship. I probably expected women to just love me like my mother does. My main wingman though has been almost as bad as me with women and he absolutely hates his mother, who he describes as a relentlessly negative, drag-everyone-down-with-her type of person.

    P.S. Thanks for the Chinweizu. I will definitely be taking a look at it.
    P.P.S. I have some new posts up after a long absence. Check them out.

    Thursdays last blog post..How to find a virgin to marry (if you are a guy)

  5. Having been a very late bloomer myself, I can somewhat sympathize. I’ve known too many really cool chicks though to really be a hater.

    I’m not 100% against this hater attitude believe it or not. I think for many guys, this extreme state of hate and bitterness is a necessary phase they have to go through in order to exorcise the decades of fairytale conditioning society has given them regarding women. To me it’s kind of like when you’re thoroughly cleaning and organizing a room and you have to make it a lot messier at first before it starts to look cleaner. Sometimes to rearrange and reorganize your belief system you have to raze it to the ground and rebuild it. I think a lot of former betas need that period of hot hate and bitterness to get rid of a lot of the beautiful fictions they’ve been conditioned to accept and open their minds to ugly truths. The problem is when they allow this hot hate and bitterness to be the end goal rather than just a necessary stage of growing pains that they eventually move past and just end up wallowing in it.

    However, not all men who do badly with women like their mothers.

    totally agree. if all it took was hating your mothers, a lot more sexual sadist serial killers would be real ladies men. i think if the hate is too extreme it can make you dysfunctional. my finding, based on pure anecdote admittedly, is that it’s a combination of dysfunctional mother relationship, either in the form of mild disrespect or apathy for the mother or even active hatred, combined with some form of overindulgence by the mother as well, like pampering, bribing, giving the kid free reign or total freedom by neglecting him and letting him run the streets at will, never disciplining him…you get the picture. Not all naturals fit this mold, but the VERY best naturals I remember did. One very gifted natural I knew didn’t quite fit this mode, but his mother did die very young so in his case I guess that’s what explained it.

    You’re welcome for the Chinweizu. In fact, if you guys like the book, thank Thursday. He’s the one who asked me to scan it.

  6. CT – a blog reader with an attention span for long articles! damn, i wish there were more of you. like a couple thousand more. 😕

  7. ‘m not 100% against this hater attitude believe it or not. I think for many guys, this extreme state of hate and bitterness is a necessary phase they have to go through in order to exorcise the decades of fairytale conditioning society has given them regarding women.

    It seems normal in most things that one overshoot the mean and rebound back and forth until you finally integrate both formerly incongruous worldviews and arrive in the center, kinda like bungee jumping.

    Also kudos on a longer/ish post and sharing chinweizu also.
    These both seem somewhat relevant to this discussion too:
    Mother’s Why Raise Your Son to Be a Nice Guy, and on society training men to sacrifice and share productivity,.

    alphadominances last blog post..Frame Control: Another pearl of wisdom from David DeAngelo

  8. Brilliant! I’ve just looked through all parts and I found this extremely enlightening especially in terms of wisdoms about kids and raising them. Setting them up with unrealistic, polarised expectations of either gender will surely lead to problems.

    Often see dads that love their little princesses above and beyond their own (probably ex) wives.

  9. T:

    great series. i enjoyed it. reading chenwaizu’s points about the female’s control over the womb made me realize how counterproductive the feminist-type movements that praise women’s sexuality actually are.

    their greatest asset is their uterus, according to chenwaizu, and i have to agree. any movement that promotes girls to dress slutty and be liberal with their sexuality is doing those women a disservice, if the goal is to maintain the upper hand.

    who were the women who got it in their head to move women into traditionally male spheres of influence? these women forced all women to sacrifice a little bit of control over their greatest asset since, for the sake of “equality”, women had to sacrifice some of their chastity.

    this thinking brings up a lot of questions in my mind pertaining to “game”. see if you can enlighten me.

    game is in favor of women opening their legs more often. actually, no, gamers are in favor of women opening their legs more often *to them* but less often to everybody else. a system that encourages such activity undermines a desire of most men; relatively chaste wives. so men want to minimize the impact of feminism while being able to have sex with more women. they want to usurp their own biological wiring by using biologically based arguments for male/female dynamics. something has to give right?

  10. Very interesting post, though I agree with Fredosphere about childbearing being the missing ingredient here. I agree that female narcissism is encouraged but women who are true narcissists frequently do quite poorly in the game of love. If they don’t like sex they deny their men so much that they destroy their relationships and if they like sex they cheat.

  11. The thing about “kitchen power” is ridiculous and for me negates any interest in Chinweizu texts.

  12. Anonymous:

    Chinweizu explicity states that womb power is the greatest of all. For the Nigerian Chinweizu and for many Americans of early generations as well, women had more control over what went into a man’s stomach than they presently do.

    It was a power women had over men, however fleeting it may have been. At the least, we know that men never had any control along those lines.

    Anyway, you can’t throw away the man’s whole work because of one point you don’t agree with. That would be like throwing away the work of Einstein because of some “mistake” in his Theory of Relativity. The overarching message is the most important thing.

    Chucks last blog post..Arthur Kade

  13. TurkishThought on April 30th, 2009 at 10:45 AM

    The below list just about describes my ex-wife and new wife to a tee. What they feel is more important than facts…

    Women are flaky and unreliable.
    Women are emotional and illogical.
    Women only live in the emotion of the moment, do what feels good at the time, and justify their actions to themselves after the fact.
    Women are manipulative and use guys for free drinks and dinners.
    Women are fickle and have short attention spans.
    Women are self-centered and self-interested.
    Women primarily go to clubs for attention and validation from men.
    Women constantly test men, try to devalue them, and try to make them jump through hoops.
    Women try to make men suck up to them and put them on a pedestal.
    Women think their pussies are made of gold and sell them to the highest bidder.
    Women don’t know what they really want.
    Women are confused and hypocritical. They’ll profess to dislike whorish behavior then blow a guy in a bathroom that night.
    Women are programmed to want to get knocked up by an Alpha Male then ensnare an unwitting Beta Male into raising the child for her.
    Women will cheat on their partners coldly and unemotionally.
    Women are slaves to how their friends and society sees them. They want to sleep around, but have to be discrete about it.
    Society’s expectations have given women all kinds of weird hang ups up about sex and hooking up. Their minds are full of strange rationalizations and justifications.
    Women are powerless to resist the right type of guy. Even if they’re married, they’ll get sucked along.
    Women are easily manipulated by simple magic

  14. TurkishThought,

    Except for the sexual components, you could just as well be describing children. I came to this realization and am a proponent of the view that one should view both as behaving similarly given the emotional basis for their decision making. Other than the sexual component of the relationship, one’s approach to both should be the same. This is the fundamental basis for behaving as the patriarch. A patriarch doesn’t engage in argument with emotional beings. A patriarch doesn’t seek validation from them. He doesn’t reason with them. He doesn’t explain himself to them. He doesn’t let them control him or tell him what to do. When a man realizes this and takes the lead, everything else falls into place.

    alphadominances last blog post..Nietzsche on the nature of women

  15. Rich Rostrom on May 1st, 2009 at 1:43 AM

    IMO the Madonna/Whore dichotomy is rooted in evolutionary psychology. It represents two competing reproductive strategies: high-value and low-cost.

    In the high-value strategy, the male pursues the sort of female who represents a high probability of producing offspring (the Madonna). Young, virginal/chaste, and so on. Such females are costly, in terms of effort to achieve sexual access. The male often has to commit a lifetime of support (i.e. marriage); though this is of benefit to his offspring by that female.

    In the low-cost strategy, the male pursues females whose probabilty of producing the male’s offspring is low, but whose cost of access is also very low (the Whore).

    Either strategy can be successful. There is evidence that each strategy is most successful when the majority of males follows the other strategy.

    Males have sexual instincts which push them to follow these strategies.

  16. The Madonna/Whore Complex describes me very well. I am only attracted to virtuous and pure women, even to the point of not wanting them to be too interested in sex. That’s simply my preference, and I don’t see it as a problem. However, I am also not delusional enough to think that there actually exist any women who are not only virtuous and pure but also meet all my other criteria.

    I had some negative experiences with my mother when I was little, and did not regard her as infallible, so my “complex” must have come from somewhere else.

  17. Kitchen power? Holy crap! I can honestly say the only thing powerful about my kitchen is that my computer is up there. I think the writer has a lot of good points about how things came to be this way and such, but such a long list of horrible things about women???

    Hating on women NEVER gives you any success with the ladies either WITH or without game. You forgot to mention women’s uncanny ability to sense things like that. It’s important. A man’s looks do him no good if he has a defeatist attitude and seeing women as the “enemy” is a defeatist attitude that goes nowhere.

    Reading this should make men realize that women are “pushed” to be a certain way just as much as men are. They are molded throughout life and usually either stick to it, or rebel wildly…. men are much the same. So why does everyone keep blaming the opposite gender for the way things are.

    One thing I see men regularly getting hateful about is women’s power in the sexual/dating world. Basically they’re pissed that we were born with the ability to give birth. It amazes me when men see this as a “feminine evil power”. They seem to be unaware that women have no choice in the matter, either and that hating them for that is the equivalent of yelling at God or shaking your fist at the sky.

    All that bitterness and hate is better cast aside. Every woman is different and most don’t fall into the categories I see above.

  18. Lady Raine,

    I’m actually not encouraging bitterness, I’m encouraging understanding. I think it’s important for men to reconsider what they view as power and understand that women exercise power in ways we don’t grasp. I don’t want to encourage hating women. If anything, this book actually humbled me as a man and made me realize how much I underestimated women in the past simply because I was analyzing them by the standards of male power.

    Regardless of whether the author’s tone is overly hateful, and I leave that determination to the individual readers to decide for themselves, he does make great points that I think both men and women need to hear. For example women thanks to feminism are giving up a lot of things that actually give them power in exchange for chasing traditionally male avenues of power that make them unhappy in the long run and don’t attract men either.

  19. Ricky Raw–

    I was more commenting on some of the lists the posters here made about women. One thing that IS great about Feminism is that men have a better chance of knowing that their woman is with them because they WANT to be not because they NEED to be. It has also provided a larger variety of “types of women” than the old ways. Women don’t have to like certain things anymore and neither do men. Those are the bonuses.

    However, I am not a fan of women that think being “equal” to men means being “the same”. People argue that that is the meaning of the word, but it’s not in the way we apply it. There are a lot of things about Feminism and female power that are great, but there are a lot of things that are not.

    I think a woman needs to realize that she can be feminine and girly and STILL fit in with the guys…. there is a nice medium, but a lot of women don’t apply it and go off the deep end one way or another (as do men).

    Also, this crap I read from hardcore feminists about a Utopia without men is appalling to me. I cannot imagine living in a world where I had to get along with just women. I’d be the very first suicide in THAT utopia. I agree with you that bitterness only punishes the person who feels bitter, not the people on the receiving end of that. I like your posts, they seem fair most of the time and show an open mind. I don’t want you to think I was ragging on your post (I was mostly ragging on the guys who are dissing women in the same way that women diss THEM.)

    Not all men are sex crazed, spitting, farting, idiots and not all women are power hungry vampires. A gender battle is one that will never be won!!

  20. Desi Kama Sutra Queen Female Pick Up Artist on July 18th, 2009 at 10:18 PM

    Aw man, now y’all are dissin’ yo mammas as well?

    That’s low O, that’s really low.

  21. I read all 3 parts in one go…fascinating! I’m starting to understand my eff’d up late bloomer friend a lot better. He talks about his mother on occaision but never his father, who is still present in his life. I haven’t read the other articles yet, but am very interested in understanding how fathers shape a man’s personality, since more often we hear how his personality is affected by lack of a father figure.

  22. There are lots of good points. If the arguments begin from a psychosexual string, it stays close to the points and follows a good corollary logic. However like the book Freakonomics, the points are very correlative in nature. The pursuit of idealism in terms of heroism for self sacrifice etc is truly designed for men to attain individual martyrdom where as women’s contributions historically have been lumped into their archetype yet generalized role of wife, mother, daughter, sister etc. Granted these roles demand the need for valor, sacrifice and other heroic attributes, those same attributes are expected to protect land, political power, financial gain etc. Hence the trait so vividly described to be found in men as kids is truly a manifestation of all these other components and pursuits as well that are granted to men as their domain. The best upside once again results in the individual patriarchal name that carries on beyond their lives and establishes a distinct greatness which is an acceptable trade off for many. The desire to excel and to dominate other men, to combat, to capture, etc still fall short of the sphere that encompasses and drives the male psyche. In conclusion, the pursuit of women becomes a more male driven endeavor. Another “game” that they have to win to impress their male cohort. It remains a strong pursuit up to their adulthood until a mutual compromise is reached to limit the battlefronts of such pursuit. They all reach a mutual contract to reduce the threat levels to leave certain components of competitive conquest a null factor. This ensures they can work together on most things and sharpen their attacks to secure a win to a more focalized territory during times of contention. A single womanizer within a fabric of well meshed male dominated industry typically signals threat and creates instability that does not go unpunished. Eventually most men settle for the trade off of setting their female pursuit aside so they can focus on more important pursuits: wealth, personal legacy, power, etc.

  23. I think a good father’s primary role is to teach about the whore side of the dichotomy and when and how to push back against feminine power ie how to wield masculine power effectively.

  24. nice way to end the post but how shall i put this. much of our world was shaped in colonial europe to understand the madonna whore complex we need understand the history of male female relationships in colonial europe. it is thinking such as this that lets me know that it will be hard to break the colonial stamp that europe has placed on the world. please send me your email i have 2 articles i wrote that you should read regarding relationships. one is titled the demand and supply of sex, the other is called why no woman loves you. as a matter of fact i will send you a copy of esther vilars 2 books which chinweizu got a lot from. my email is gasdemup?yahoo.com also yes as i got older i realised that my moms aint perfect i even told her that the only honest women are ex strippers and prostitutes because they tell you what they are upfront. the only problem is you cant turn a hoe into a house wife.

  25. You are born an Alpha Man. There is no becoming an Alpha as it is deeply ingrained.

  26. I am a Madonna-Whore man and have spent 22 years in a sexless marriage because of it. I have spent many years and thousands of dollars with many different therapists trying to become a “normal” husband without any luck.

    I have researched the topic to death and have come to the conclusion that a preference for sex with women other than your wife is pretty much like a sexual orientation. In other words, it is like being Gay. A Gay man or woman could have sex with a member of the opposite sex but they will never enjoy it and will never have a high level of sexual desire. MH men are the same, their “sexual orientation” demands a need for an arms length relationship in order to fully enjoy the sexual experience. Once a relationship gets too close they lose their sexual desire. It is like someone suddenly turning off a switch.

    And it doesn’t need to be in a marital situation. Any time a relationship with a woman starts to get serious the level of sexual desire begins to drop. The more serious the relationship, the more sexual desire dwindles down.

    Men like us should never marry but like other men we want to be part of a family and have kids. Many MH men go into marriage with the best of intentions only to find they no longer want to have sex with their wives. Some believe they can seek sex elsewhere after the wedding but of course this complicates their lives and endangers their marriage. Some can have sex with their wives but don’t enjoy it and only do it enough to keep the wife from leaving them.

    It really depends on how effected the man is by his MH complex. because men cannot get an erection if there is no sexual desire men with severe cases of MH complex suffer from sexual dysfunctions with their wives such as the inability to get or keep an erection, or the inability to ejaculate during sex, both consequences of low sexual desire. When these men masturbate alone or have sex with someone outside the marriage they function sexually without any problems at all.

    This is all caused by a psychological disorder with roots in childhood that works on a subconscious level so many, if not most, MH men have no idea why they cannot get turned on by their wives or girlfriends who they care deeply about.

    My wife has accepted the fact that I am unable to function sexually with her and although I have had a few “Buddies With Benefits” over the years mostly I have had to rely on masturbation alone as my sole sexual outlet.

    If you want a regular sex life being single, where you can control the amount of closeness in your relationships and break it off as soon as you feel your sexual desire for any given women start to drop, is really the only way to go.

    If you want to be married then both partners need to accept the fact that the marriage will be sexless.

    The inability to have sexual desire for someone you love is impossible to change and accepting this fact will allow you to attempt to adapt your life to this situation rather than wasting your time and money trying to “fix” it.

  27. What I don’t understand is why you all seem to think be implying that sex is ‘dirty’. That’s the real basis of this complex, that a woman who enjoys sex must be bad because sex is bad or ‘naughty’. Probably due to religious programming.

  28. Brutal. thanks for the Chinweizu too

  29. I must say Brant that I totally believe you. I have a friend that I could totally see he loved his wife, but the moment she got pregnant he started hating her and treated her like crap, cheating on her with her best friend, they got a divorce (and trust me he was a mess so he still loved her) but then after sluting himself around he got one of his steady girlfriends, the moment she also got pregnant, the same phenomenon…very sad for everyone indeed. So my guess is had to do with some sexual manipulation one his stepmother did towards him when he was a teenager and the fact that his birth mother is an ambitious woman willing to do anything and endure anything for a buck.

    I advice you to try and work with your wife a way she can start to take distance for you on a way you both can. Separate bedrooms, she can start taking classes not talking about work, there is a book called Mating in captivity that talks about space to create sexual desire. Try and get it. Wish you luck!

  30. Well actually the out of the bedroom part of the marriage is usually very good with MH men. They are usually good husbands and excellent fathers and do love their wives, they just can’t have sex with them. It has nothing to do with religion or sex being dirty. MH men love sex but again, just not with their wives or any woman where the level of intimacy passes a “tipping point” which is slightly different depending on the man.

    So other than the problems created in the relationship by the lack of sex, the rest of the interpersonal relationship is good which is why some of these marriages stay together for decades. And some MH men, not fully understanding what is going on, tend to overcompensate by being the best husbands they can be in every area except sex. They like being married and they love family life. If they had an “open” type marriage where they could seek sex outside the relationship their lives would be close to perfect. What often ends these marriages is either the lack of sex, the husband’s constant reliance on affairs or solo masturbation often accompanied by heavy porn use.

  31. Make that MW men not MH men.

  32. what is all this crap about women’s greatest asset being their uteruses? try going to a third world country where women are pressured to give birth and those who can’t concieve are shunned and see how much power they have. how does fighting for women to have better jobs rob them of power? power to what, find a husband? suppose you aren’t interested in having kids? suppose you want to be valued for more than your breeding ability? what about lesbians? and gay men for that matter?

  33. tasha,

    What do you consider to be the greatest asset in a woman? how about in a man? how about in a lesbian? how about in gay men?

  34. If the kitchen gives power then men would be the ones who dominate the kitchen. They would have cooking contests with there buddies and then brag about whos the best lol.
    Next time dont forget to mention laundry and cleaning too.

    It would be very sad if a person believed that his/hers greatest asset is there penis/womb. And i feel sorry for those who do so.