Madonna/Whore Complexes, Part 2

Part 1 over here. I originally said it would be two parts. Screw it, it’s gonna be three instead. This installment is going to discuss why people who don’t grow up suffering from madonna/whore complexes tend to be more naturally good with women and sexual relationships. The next installment will be about why men who do have extreme madonna/whore complex anxieties are often horrible with women. And in case you’re wondering, I’m not a fan of either extreme. Ideally I think one should be somewhere in the middle. A man should be somewhat cynical and skeptical and screen against sluts to avoid cuckolding and raising kids that aren’t his, but neither should he be so cynical that he thinks that all women are untrustworthy at best and whores at worst, as that leads to its own set of problems.

In the last installment we had two womanizers who appeared on the Tyra Banks show, Ahmed the superstar and Shawn the Slumdog Hundredaire. Two ladies’ men who were as different as darkest night and brightest day. As I was watching the show, I figured out that Ahmed, who came off as a guy who was effortlessly natural at wooing and attracting women, had detachment issues with his mom. And I came to the conclusion the Shawn was more of a momma’s boy. Shawn mentioned calling his mom every day earlier on, so I had no doubts about him, but I figured I’d never find out what Ahmed’s situation, but luckily near the end of the show the following exchange happened:

Tyra: So you say that marriage is not biological for a man and x,y,z, but tell me?there?s a reason why you think in your life with your childhood as to why you are a womanizer??

Ahmed: I think there is a detachment with me and my feelings when it comes to women, based off of maybe feeling a void I did what i did. At a young age me and my mother were tight, she was a single parent, and she was independent and I looked up to her. She was my mother and my father. She did what she had to do, masters? degree, blahblahblah. Then she got married, then put her career and herself on the back burner for a man, had his kids and he just broke out on her. So misery loves company, and I didn?t like that, and I was neglected in the situation, so ever since then, I was like ?You know what, I might do what I do, but?

Tyra: Did you become detached from your mother?

Ahmed: Yes, me and my mother didn?t get along. So I left at a young age and ever since then my attitude was like ?[Fuck] women??

Tyra: If you had a different childhood, do you think you?d be a different man?

Ahmed: I think so. I think all my friends that are cool with their mothers and respect their moms have a different outlook when it comes to dealing with women.

So how did I predict Ahmed had problems with his mother? Well first let me make something clear. I don’t think that everyone who is good with women has problems with their mother. Some people are good with women because they are late bloomers who studied hard or found good mentors as adults to cure themselves of politically correct reassuring fictions and undo a lot of counterproductive conditioning they had growing up. Some are good with women because they had the rare type of mother who was not politically correct and was willing to tell them some ugly truths about men and women. So I’m not trying to say every good womanizer has mother issues. But what I do believe is that people like Ahmed, the true naturals who don’t get emotionally hung up on chicks no matter how hot they are, who are effortless in their confidence and game, tend to have some emotional distance with their mothers, whether it’s just some aloofness to all-out rage.

I first stumbled on this notion in world-famous master pimp Robert Beck AKA Iceberg Slim’s autobiography Pimp. In it, the young Iceberg Slim grows up with a loving mother and his nice guy stepfather. It is the happiest time in his life. His mother has just been left by his philandering, unreliable father and times are initially hard for young Iceberg and his mother.

There were no jobs in Indianapolis for Mama and for six months we barely made it on the meager savings. We were pennisless and with hardly any food when a tall black angel visiting relatives in Indianapolis came into our lives.

He instantly fell in love with my lissome beautiful mother. His name was Henry Upshaw, and I guess I fell as hard for him as he fell for Mama.

He took us back to Rockford, Illinois with him where he owned a cleaning and pressing shop, the only Negro business in downtown Rockford.

In those tough depression times a Negro in his position was the envy of most Negro men.

Henry was religious, ambitious, good and kind. I often wonder what would have happened to my life if I had not been torn from him.

He treated Mama like she was a princess, anything she wanted he got for her. She was a fashion plate all right.

Every Sunday when we all three went to church in the gleaming black Dodge we were an outstanding sight as we walked down the aisle in our fresh neat clothing.

Only the few Negro lawyers and physicians lived as well, looked as well. Mama was president of several civic clubs. For the first time we were living the good life.

Mama had a dream. She told it to Henry. Like the genie of the lamp he made it a reality.

It was a four stall, opulent beauty shop. Its chrome gleamed in the black-and-gold motif. It was located in the heart of the Negro business section and it flourished from the moment its doors opened.

Her clientele was for the most part whores, pimps and hustlers from the sprawling “red light” district in Rockford. They were the only ones who always had the money to spend on their appearance.

The first time I saw Steve he was sitting getting his nails manicured in the shop. Mama was smiling into his handsome olive-tinted face as she buffed his nails.

I didn’t know when I first saw him that he was the pin-striped snake who would poison the core of our lives…

There was really nothing out of the ordinary that day. Nothing during that day that I heard or saw that prepared me for the swift, confusing events that over the weekend would slam my life away from all that was good to all that was bad.

Now looking back remembering that last day in the shop as clearly as if it were yesterday my stepfather, Henry, was unusually quiet. My young mind couldn’t grasp his worry, his heart break.

Even I, a ten year old, however, knew that this huge, ugly black men who had rescued Mama and me from actual starvation back in Indianapolis loved us with all of his great, sensitive heart.

I loved Henry with all my heart. He was the only father I had ever really known.

He could have saved himself an early death from a broken heart if instead of falling so madly in love with Mama he had run as fast as he could away from her. For him she was brown-skin murder in a size-twelve dress.

Steve was a sleazy, sneaky low-level pimp that had Iceberg’s mother dripping wet with lust and eating out of his hands.

Yes, poor Henry’s fears had foundation. Mama had never loved my stepfather. This kind wonderful man had only been a tool of convenience. She had fallen in love with the snake all right…

One scene in my life I can never forget and that was that morning when Mama had finished packing out clothes and Henry lost his inner fight for his pride and dignity.

He fell down on his knees and bawled like a scalded child pleading with Mama not to leave him, begging her to stay. He had welded his arms around her legs, his voice hoarse in anguish as he whimpered his love for us.

His agonized eyes walled up at her as he wailed, “Please don’t leave me. You are sure to kill me if you do. I ain’t done nothing. If I have, forgive me.”

I will never forget her face as cold as an executioner’s, which she was, as she kicked and struggled loose from him.

Then with an awful grin on her face she lied and said, “Henry, Honey, I just want to get away for a while. Darling, we’ll be back.”…

As the cab drove us away to the secret rendezvous with Steve sitting in his old Model T, I looked back at Henry on the porch, his chest heaving as tears rolled down his tortured face.

I’m sure it surprises no one to hear that things just got worse and worse from there. Steve convinced Iceberg’s mom to search out and reunite with Iceberg’s dad under the pretense of reconciliation, so that they could set him up to be robbed. Iceberg’s dad had straightened up and gotten a good job and was in a nice house and had accumulated belongings worth stealing. She not only double-crossed his dad, she acted as if she didn’t have anything to do with the double-cross, and cried hysterically when she “discovered” the robbery alongside Beck’s dad, who had no suspicion of her involvement. Iceberg AKA Beck recalled

For many tortured years she would suffer her guilt. She had made that terrible decision on that long ago weekend.

I know my lousy old man deserved what happened to his goods. I know Mama got her revenge and it was sweet. I am sure, but it was bitter for a kid like me to know that Mama was part of it.

Perhaps if Mama had kept that burglary cross a secret from me, in some tiny way I might have been stronger to fight off that pimping disease. I don’t know but somehow after that cross mama just didn’t seem like the same honest sweet Mama that I had prayed in church with back in Rockford.

Can you picture a child going through such experiences and still growing up to put women on a pedestal and seeking their approval? Me neither. Late in his life, long after he left pimping, Robert “Iceberg” Beck gave an interview reminiscing on his life and career:

Koblin: Do pimps hate their whores?

Beck: Well, not necessarily consciously. The best pimps that I have known, that is the career pimps, the ones who could do twenty, maybe thirty years as a pimp, were utterly ruthless and brutal without compassion. They certainly had a basic hatred for women.

My theory is, and I can’t prove it, if we are to use the criteria of utter ruthlessness as a guide, that all of them hated their mothers. Perhaps more accurately, I would say that they’ve never known love and affection, maternal love and affection. I’ve known several dozen in fact that were dumped into the trash bins when they were what?…. only four or five days old.

Koblin: You say you loved your mother in your book.

Beck: Of course, but underneath the threshold of consciousness, I know that I must have hated her, as demonstrated by my neglect of her through the years.

In reading Robert “Iceberg” Beck’s autobiography, you notice that long before he became a pimp, he was already an effortless, smooth-talking “natural” with women. Since reading the book and Iceberg’s interviews, I began looking at naturals and many of them had dysfunctional relationships with their mothers. In the case of some of these naturals, they had good relationships with their mothers but had even stronger relationships with a very alpha male father. This helps one become a natural as well, but by and large the somewhat dysfunctional or distant relationship with the mother seemed to be the biggest factor in creating naturals, especially if it was interspersed with periods of pampering (Iceberg also claimed that his mother, for all his faults, pampered him as best she could and that this also contributed to his becoming a pimp). The power of this combo is that they dysfunction keeps the man from growing up putting women on a pedestal because he’s sees his mom as weak and flawed, meaning he doesn’t have some ideal maternal model as an example for his mates to aspire to, but the pampering and coddling aspects train him to expect favors from women without any guilt, hesitation, shame or repentance. In fact, a natural doesn’t even view it as a favor so much as something he’s entitled to.

The extreme natural like Iceberg can turn off his emotions at will like a faucet because he has no mental division between the Madonna and Whore archetypes. The Madonna and Whore archetypes became one and the same for him at a young age. Sometimes even when I see brothers who handle women very differently despite growing up in the same family, I can look at their birth orders and examine how their relationships with their mother differed and see reinforcement that the one with the more natural skills with women is the one with a more complicated or less warm relationship to the mother, making him less likely to deify the feminine mystique.

What is the mechanism at work here? Well, do you remember way back when I discussed the Mystery/Mastery Paradox? That’s where I described how something is a mystery to you, which makes you love it and drives you to master it. However once you master it, it loses it’s mystery and you start to fall out of love with it. This boredom and frustration drives you to reframe the challenge in a way to make it interesting to you again or to chase a whole new challenge. Well that can also work in reverse. Sometimes something gets demystified to you first, and then the fact that it’s no longer a mystery to you allows you to fall out of love with it and master it easily. To people like Iceberg Slim and Ahmed, women were demystified to them at an early age, which made them fall out of love with them as a noble ideal and allowed them to master them.

It was my readings of Iceberg Slim that first made me notice this dynamic. This is they dynamic I immediately noticed when watching Ahmed and Shawn on Tyra’s show. It’s no surprise then that one of the first things Shawn, obvious late bloomer with horrible game, mentioned was he was close to his mom. And it’s no surprise that Ahmed, super natural with his arms around both his ex-fling and his current squeeze, said losing respect for his mom is exactly what made him great with women. And if you notice in the clip above, when Ahmed makes the same observation that Iceberg made about men and their mothers, Shawn immediately protests. Very telling.


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45 Responses to “Madonna/Whore Complexes, Part 2”

  1. Bravo, very insightful post

    a_cs last blog post..Computer discovers the laws of physics

  2. Very interesting. I suspect you are onto something here. I would agree that nice guys are held in thrall to their mothers and the pedestal issue plagues them later in their lives. One must come to a realization at some point that your mother is only human and likely tells you one thing while responds herself to other factors entirely when it comes to men. I posed this question here: http://alphadominance.com/?p=885 and the dialogue in the comments is rather enlightening I have found.

    alphadominances last blog post..News flash: Women were happier before the feminist movement.

  3. de Tocqueville on April 14th, 2009 at 10:29 AM

    I’ve seen the Tyra episode and I wanted to point out that while I agree that Ahmed was smoother than Shawn, Ahmed was still pretty inarticulate himself. He stuttered and hemmed and hawed more than Shawn.

    Shawn was articulate but said a lot of weak stuff. Ahmed came across as less of a cheesy douchebag but he didn’t articulate well. For example, when asked whether he loved his wife, Ahmed could have simply said, “Women use the word ‘love’ too easily and don’t mean it; I want to mean it when I say it.” Instead, he blubbered some incoherent answer.

    I wanted to hear more from Dick Masterson!

  4. Anonymous Coward on April 14th, 2009 at 10:38 AM

    This post is epic. I don’t think folks will understand all of the implications until later.

  5. agreed Anon. C.

    I actually think T.’s entire oeuvre is epic. I randomly encountered it looking for information on post-swing era saxophonists.

    I’m compelled to comment that at the core I think this is largely about identity. Seems to me that complexes about parents really imply a lack of solid self-identity; Ahmed says his abilities with women stem from a detachment from his mother and I agree that a detachment (be it a result of disrespect, bad relationship, whatever) is always necessary. As a great teacher of mine once said, you have to hate your parents….

    You don’t have to *hate* your parents. But you DO have to establish your own identity as separate from them, not defined by them, in whatever way works. Ahmed did that; Shawn has not. Ahmed is confident in his own self and that confidence is what women are finding irresistable. Shawn is merely persistent and his identity is not yet separate from his mother; he is using the part of his identity that is inextricably tied to his own mother to make the connection with women.

    Slumdog, yep. Jamal: a blatant example of a more or less impotent Don Juan who spends his life chasing his mother, calling her Latika.

    T., I would be very interested in your thoughts women and their fathers.

  6. Really enjoying this series, T. Very astute observations. A few of my own:

    Ideally I think one should be somewhere in the middle. A man should be somewhat cynical and skeptical and screen against sluts to avoid cuckolding and raising kids that aren?t his, but neither should he be so cynical that he thinks that all women are untrustworthy at best and whores at worst, as that leads to its own set of problems.

    Advocating for “balance” on an issue always sounds good and wins popularity points, but I don’t think it’s warranted in this case.

    Do you agree with Devlin’s theory of female Hypergamy?

    Did you read that article posted over at Roissy’s which involved the scientific testing of womens’ sexual response, along with the unnerving conclusion that women themselves do not consciously appreciate what moves them sexually?

    I believe these two factors alone go a long way towards justifying the more “cynical and untrustworthy” POV.

    The extreme natural like Iceberg can turn off his emotions at will like a faucet because he has no mental division between the Madonna and Whore archetypes. The Madonna and Whore archetypes became one and the same for him at a young age.

    I’m not sure if you are lauding this as an example of “transcending” the alleged perniciousness of the MWC, but to me this describes someone who sees women as neither Madonnas nor Whores, but as mere “things” to be used.

    But I take your main point: a certain psychological distancing from the Mother object goes a long way towards avoiding the problem of over-idealization and betatude.

    On the other hand, a singular *lack* of a mother figure can also induce neediness in a boy. A hole in the soul that can never be filled.

    It would seem that having one’s idealizations crushed by observing one’s mother as “human all too human” is the best way to go, but the Iceberg Slim examples stray a little too far to the pathological side of things.

    Look at how warmly he loved his beta father. That probably did more to make Slim as mentally stable as he was (as against other well known pimps and hustlers.)

    It would be a sorry comment on humanity if the only way to produce successful ladies men is by having a sleazebag for a father and a conniving opportunist for a mother.

    If you really want to strip things down to a purely “realistic”, i.e. nihilistic view of women, then you have to conclude that women are meaningful only for babymaking and pleasure. One or the other. Do you take the red pill or the blue?

    Which is my attitude, for the most part.

    Of course, that leaves Romance dead in a dark alley with a stake driven through its heart.

  7. T:

    again, great post.

    I started reading the beginning to your second installment and started thinking about “Pimp”. It really got me that you tied all this into that great book. (Iceberg Slim, or at least “Pimp” is one of the most underrated works in contemporary American literature).

    a couple of points:

    growing up, I was always in awe of guys who called their mothers by her first name or had their own place by the age of 17. it wasn’t normal where i grew up. looking back, those guys usually had strained relations with their mothers or at least distant relations. one guy in particular was banging teachers while still in high school.

    i’ve heard it said, and it makes sense, that boys abandoned by their mothers draw the worst lot in life. i remember reading the biography of henry lee lucas, a serial killer from texas whose first murder was that of his prostitute mother who also made him have sex with her. he claims to have killed 300 more women, though its probably in the teens. he killed prostitutes but was gay.

    one problem i’ve always had, mainly in relationships, is being able to have that killer instinct. i held back from chastizing a woman or deferred to a woman because i held her in the same regard as my mother. i couldn’t stand to disappoint a woman, at any cost. i’ve unshackled those chains since i’ve realized that women don’t want to be your mother.

    Chucks last blog post..Little Miss Shit Test

  8. I too expected some serious manbashing given the show (Tyra)

    Benedict Smiths last blog post..I’m open-minded…as long as you agree with my beliefs.

  9. Solid post T. A very interesting and original (to me) take.

  10. Restless Native on April 15th, 2009 at 7:30 PM

    Interesting post–when I think about it, the one childhood friend of mine who was the best with women at an early age (he had had sex w/ numerous girls even before high school) also had a drug addict mother who half-abandoned him and his half-sister to different relatives and then went out and had kids by even more men, leaving the relatives to raise him and his sister as their own.

  11. I came upon this set of videos indepently awhile back, and immediately thought, “yes, this man Ahmed is a natural.” Few PUAs have that masculine, dominant air about ’em. At most, they’re good, relaxed conversationalists. David X and Badboy are prominent exceptions. Definitely not Neil Strauss, Mystery, or even David Deangelo and Zan.

    It’s been a couple months since I saw the clips, but Dick Masterson strikes me as phony and overcompensating. He seems a little too excited to say what he believes, he tries too hard. He also doesn’t have the swagger to pull it off, and the women know it. In their words, he’s not “cute enough” to get away with his schtick. He’s playing a character, so he can’t moderate his views when appropiate. His shirts are great though, its just man > woman, with pictographs instead of words.

    T, love the blog, every post is insightful, like reading Robert Greene or Malcolm X for the first time, every time.

  12. Good stuff.

    Have you read Camille Paglia on distant/absent fathers as a correlating and causal factor in male homosexuality? Cf. Cochran –it’s a virus. I wonder if we could tie that in somehow, maybe chart it all out –distant mother + distant father = A; distant mother + close father = B…. Then a few more factors… I should try to graph this….

    Also, interesting on birth order. Graph worthy factor too.

    Finally, definitely something to scenes and arguing in front of the kids as a negative factor.

  13. Great post

  14. CZ,

    I’d be interested whether age of parents has an impact. I have a pet theory that male pickyness in women is increased by youthful or beautiful mothers, like an Oedipal thing. I was the first son of a young and beautiful mother and am very picky, yet friends born of older fugly mothers seem willing to accept that in their own women. Hmm…

    We should get Dusk in Autumn to look at this, he’s good with stats.

    alphadominances last blog post..News flash: Women were happier before the feminist movement.

  15. de Tocqueville – I think Ahmed was inarticulate to a degree, yet somehow looked more comfortable and control of the people around him than Shawn. I think Ahmed was hemming and hawing because he was trying to find a the least offensive way to talk about his views without actually lying about them. Given all the potential hostility he could have faced on all fronts, plus being on TV when you’re not used to it, I can cut him some slack.

    Shawn on the other hand was more articulate but seems to have very little social intelligence, at least for the game at the level he wants to play it.

  16. Part 3 is even more epic. With even more implications. For real, yo.

  17. Szn, regarding the women and their fathers thing, down the line I’m doing a “Game For Women” month all geared toward helping women. Similar to my Perfect Woman post from last year, but more indepth. Almost a Renaissance Man series but for the females.

  18. Your point with the serial killers is really good, Chuck. I have a bizarre fascination with them, and many of them, especially the ones with a trend of antifemale violence, have women issues too. It makes one wonder, why do mother issues create in some men great natural game with women while in some men mother issues create a serial killer that targets women? I think it’s a shame and abuse factor. I find a lot of serial killers had dysfunctional relationships with their moms that included extreme shame, especially surrounding fanatical religious morality and sexual issues, outright abuse, sheltering, terrorizing. With the natural, it’s a dysfunctional relationship, but not so much outright direct abuse. More like neglect, open promiscuity, immaturity, being a poor role model, etc. And it is often coupled with pampering or extremely lax oversight. In your friends case for example being allowed to have his own apartment so young is almost a form of pampering.

    It’s good to have smart commenters, they bring up points to me that I totally missed.

  19. Basil – I thought the same thing about Masterson, he’s funny but it seems too much like a phony shtick at times. Like he’s trying too hard.

    Great point on the pickup artist guys, many of them come off a little too polished, like that salesman that seems to have taken a lot of those sales worshops and seminars a little too much to heart and comes off phony instead of trustworthy and friendly.

  20. CZ –

    1) Pardon my ignorance but who’s Cochran?

    2) Can you point me to Paglia’s writings on homosexuality? Published rticle available online or essay within one of her books?

    3) Graph stuff would be great, but I’ll be honest with you, totally out of my skill set. If you or anyone else out there thinks they can do it, knock yourself out and send me the result and I’ll post it on the blog and credit you.

    4) birth order is fascinating, there are plenty of great books out there on the topic. some of it is seems questionable and pure guesswork, but a lot of it is also really fascinating and makes sense.

    5) Agree about arguing in front of kids. Especially depending on who regularly gets the upper hand and whether there’s a lot of humiliation and abuse in the process.

  21. AD – Nah, no thanks. He’s a very smart dude but he approaches every problem by trying to shoehorn it into a IQ-by-race evolutionary analysis or a teenage girl analysis. He’ll ignore whatever other data he has to to get it to fit into the right conclusions.

  22. Nah, no thanks. He?s a very smart dude but he approaches every problem by trying to shoehorn it into a IQ-by-race evolutionary analysis or a teenage girl analysis. He?ll ignore whatever other data he has to to get it to fit into the right conclusions.

    Yeah I was just thinking to work up the charts and figures hut I hear you T.

    alphadominances last blog post..News flash: Women were happier before the feminist movement.

  23. T,

    1. Paglia has written a few books, but I mostly read her stuff on Salon.com. That distant father comment I found here: http://preview.tinyurl.com/c9tsxv, http://archive.salon.com/people/col/pagl/2001/05/23/oil/index.html [“The energy mess and fascist gays; The liberal elite is demonizing the “big oil” that keeps its cars running. Plus: Gays, get a clue — heterosexuality is nature’s norm.”]

    “Homosexuality has a thousand stories, but they seem to fall into a few simple patterns….
    “I personally believe that, depending on chance and opportunity, everyone is capable of bisexual responses. What continues to puzzle me as a scholar is how some people, whom we call homosexual, are driven to resist nature’s overwhelming hormonal mating signals at puberty.
    “No one is born gay. The mere idea that that is possible is a flimsy fabrication of sloppy journalists and amoral queer activists…. I have seen again and again how a sensitive young boy, rejected by a brutal or distant father, makes a secret pact with his mother, who bonds to her son as a blissful, emotional haven from her rigid or uncommunicative husband. Such boys may end up idolizing their mothers yet feeling strangled and suffocated by her unflagging attentiveness and neediness. Adult men who avoid women as sexual partners have a subliminal fear of entrapment, physical and psychological….”

    There’s also a fascinating South Park episode on this –Cartman spoiled by his whore husbandless mother mostly because she’s so lonely. Failing to discipline him or inculcate some virtues will probably make it that much more difficult for him to be a success in adulthood, which lack of success, of course, will impact on his marriage/woman-getting prospects.

    Not the topic exactly, but it might be useful.

    2. Gregory Cochran. This guy is a heavy dude, idea-wise. Unofficial fan site: http://gc.homeunix.net/ –for our purposes, see, especially, Articles, and “Gene or Virus Interview.” . His recent book: http://the10000yearexplosion.squarespace.com/ A little more lightheartedly, see “Consequences of Agriculture” –fun video. And, an interview: http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/2009/01/a_week_with_gre.html

    ….must go now, thanks again,

  24. de Tocqueville on April 17th, 2009 at 12:32 PM

    Szn, regarding the women and their fathers thing, down the line I’m doing a “Game For Women” month all geared toward helping women. Similar to my Perfect Woman post from last year, but more indepth. Almost a Renaissance Man series but for the females.

    As a man, I think this is a great idea. As easy as it is to turn a guy on, women still mess it up. One girl I was working on recently got the straight-across, bowl-cut bangs look and I totally lost all interest. I don’t know any women who looks good with this haircut and even the models who sometimes try it out would look better with a different style.

    If you could get the other bloggers like Roosh, Roissy, VK to do a “Female Game” month, it would be epic. Thanks.

  25. T,

    I agree with you on the fact that a guy’s relationship with his mother tells a great deal of how he behaves with women.

    Now a great proof of your Madonna/whore complex is when Ahmed’s fling is talking about the abusive relationship he had with a mama’s boy; he probably found out she wasn’t like his mother, therefore a whore, that is where the abusiveness comes from.

    Comparing Shawn and Ahmed: you can tell Shawn is trying hard to sell himself, it kinda reminded me of a job interview, he basically said he was an open minded guy every like two lines, in an obvious effort to impress whoever was listening. Also when confronted by Tyra about his modeling experience he got extremely defensive, because his identity as a model was challenged by someone who had a stronger identity in that respect. Ahmed just laid out who he was.

    In the end it all comes down to identity. Shawn will never date girls like Ahmed’s fling, simply because they have a stronger identity. He is confined to girls that have less identity that he has, and sadly those girls happen to be pasty, chubby girls who are impressed by a business card.

  26. Killer comment, AZ. You nailed it on your analysis of Ahmed’s fling’s ex.

  27. Thanks T,

    I was reading one of your previous posts and there was one about merging your three faces. Where I was going to with the behavior of Shawn and his identity, is basically saying that he hasn’t merged his three faces, and he will only attract girls who can’t see this.

    Also I have noticed that men that usually have problems engaging in sexual banter also have a close relationship with their mother, and when they finally do engage in sexual banter they come off too strong or creepy, because they never had an honest conversation with their mom. (Me, I personally don’t think I come of strong and/or creepy, but I do tend to avoid conversations with sexual overtones when in the presence of women, specially hot women.)

    Now the question is, how do you reverse 20 years of being a mama’s boy?

  28. Restless Native on April 17th, 2009 at 11:47 PM

    I dunno man, I have met quite a few “pasty, chubby girls” who have major egos and think who they are, and who will sit back and try to pick and choose guys as if they were Tyra Banks herself..
    But then again, I am in current-day New York City, where every uninteresting, pasty, chubby girl from around the country dreams of coming to reinvent herself as someone popular and desirable. 😆

  29. Shit NY is one place where the 6’s walk around like they just booked the cover of Vogue. For real.

  30. Restless Native on April 18th, 2009 at 1:56 PM

    That was one of the most striking and eye-opening things I noticed about living in Japan: There, you can browse through a fashion mag in the convenience store, step out onto the street, and see the same (high) caliber of beautiful girl walking around as if it were normal (which it is there).

    In NY, what we have walking down the Manhattan streets on the average night are loud pasty flabby drunk girls with muffin-tops and no idea how to apply makeup.

    My friends and I used to always say there, the beautiful thing about Japan is that whereas an American 6 thinks she’s a 10, a Japanese 10 thinks she’s a 6.

  31. I have a pet theory that male pickyness in women is increased by youthful or beautiful mothers, like an Oedipal thing. I was the first son of a young and beautiful mother and am very picky, yet friends born of older fugly mothers seem willing to accept that in their own women.

    I’m so glad you brought this up. It’s something I’ve thought about for a long time, as it has been the bane of my existence (being picky that is).

    I’ve noticed the same thing you have regarding sons of fugly and/or bitchy mothers being genuinely content with mediocre wives/girlfriends, and vice-versa.

    I suppose if one’s mother serves as the template or love-map for what “fits” in regard to one’s romantic-sexual choices, everything seeks its own level and people are content. People of similar sexual market value pair off and create offspring of the same SMV who then, barring other factors, have relatively little trouble finding mates.

    But I believe there can be disruptions in the “set-point” of a boy’s expectations when the natural order of things becomes altered.

    For instance, in my case, my father is someone whom I wouldn’t call a natural, and probably not an alpha with women. He was more of an angry and rebellious party-dude. But I only learned this from hearing stories over the years from his childhood and college friends, because the father I knew growing up was nothing like that. Apparently, when he married my mother he attempted to “clean up his act”, did a 180 and became Mr. Dudley-Do-Right. He never once talked to me about women and most of his life’s lessons to me were about being a good little beta-provider.

    Before getting married, his relationships were explosive affairs with cute, but hot-headed women. Two hot-headed people always locking horns. So when he married, he married a sweet, submissive traditional woman from South America — the only type of woman who would put up with his inflexable nature. And to bring this back on topic, she was quite the beauty. And if she had been American, she would have been out of his league.

    So I ended up in a situation where my “lovemap” was skewed upwards of where it should have been, and my father’s piss poor way of teaching me about women only compunded that fact.

    It explains why I am constantly getting shit from friends and family about my expectations. But they can’t understand. I literally cannot lower my expectations. It would be like asking a normal guy to start liking fatties. And I’ve since grown tired of an endless string of 6’s and 7’s. Nowadays I prefer to bide my time for the agreeable 8’s (only had one honest-to-goodness 9 in my life). In this sense, I can relate to David Alexander’s predicament. *shudder*

    I’m telling you, it’s hard out here for a pimp. 😉

    Hope someone else finds this useful.

  32. I’d argue that, beyond just the types of people we gravitate toward (and how they look), our parents’ relationship style is HUGE in determining how we “do” relationships, too. And just as difficult to overcome.

  33. Indeed. In my case, not only do I have the handicap of having had a beautiful mother to raise my expectations, she was also sweet, kind and deferential to my father in their relationship. I was fortunate in one sense, because even though I had my early beta years where I acted needy, I had it ingrained in my psyche that no woman EVER takes the dominant role or gets uppity.

    Do you know how hard it is to find an 8 or above who is also kind and relatively submissive? Yeah, you probably do.

    In many ways I think I’ve come as far as I have in overcoming my inner beta only because I had a fire burning in me all along to chase an impossible ideal. Sort of like those mechanical rabbits at the dog races which the dogs will never catch, but keeps the dogs running at 100% of their capacity.

  34. Yes Ricky Raw, I agree with others, this is a great series. I’m impatient for part 3 in fact.

    Your insight that perhaps most natural players have somewhat distant or strained relationships with their mothers rings true, but needs refinement.

    At first this seems to run contra to popular wisdom, which is that ladies men tend to have warm, even flirtatious relationships with their mothers or sometimes another older female important in their youth. I doubt if we’ll find many naturals among men who grew up always ignored or disfavored by their mothers, or who constantly fought with them. We might find some, given the importance of genetics, but I think those would be dampening rather than enhancing of playerdom factors.

    Let’s focus on your two examples, Ahmed from that Tyra show, who you rightly point out is the only natural player of the 4 and really the only one who’s charismatic or seems to get real hotties, and the the famous black pimp, Robert ?Iceberg? Beck, author of “Pimp”.

    Both initially had warm and loving relationships with their unusually attractive mothers. And then both were severely disillusioned by the hot sex seeking carnal priorities of their mothers, chosen over preserving a stable and loving family and child raising environment. Both came in late childhood to see their mothers as loving yes, but readily sexually manipulable as well. They both came to see that their particular mothers would throw away much for a man who was really good at exciting her lust. They might not like to verbalize it just like that (though I bet Iceberg does), but that’s the nub of their realization and their ensuing sense of distance from their far from worthy of being on a pedestal mothers.

  35. It explains why I am constantly getting shit from friends and family about my expectations. But they can?t understand. I literally cannot lower my expectations. It would be like asking a normal guy to start liking fatties

    Spot on Tupac, your experience mirrors my own to a great extent. Dad was a badass who settled down and while he retained the social dominance aspect, my mother stayed home and pretty much ran the house. They kept to their separate worlds and divided labor in the traditional manner. My younger brother, who was born when my mother was still young, has a similar outlook to my own, but my folks always stayed fit and attractive even as they aged so to me that is the norm. I’ve been told before that I’m mean because I’ve told women I’ve been seeing that if we ever married and they let themselves get fat that I’d be gone. I know that this is in our control and am not willing to settle for cattle-class. Some woman who wants to let herself go should know up front that she better find a guy with the same attitude and not waste my time. Consequently, like yourself I’ve passed on a lot of sevens and under, or higher ranking women with shitty domineering attitudes because I won’t have it. I tend to exclusively date women who have it together and who turn heads because I can, and because I expect it (and because I like it when the other hater-girls give the looks of contempt and drag their gaga boyfriends by us). Let the Dudley Do-Rights date the Big Beluga Whales (bbw’s) with hearts of gold, that’s what assortive mating is all about. I often find myself telling my bro’s they can do better and shaking my head when they settle down with plain jane’s who’ve gone crisco (fat in the can). Some (most?) guys just don’t get it. I think your set-point assessment is correct.

    alphadominances last blog post..Humans have Pheromones Too: Part III ~ Female Pheromones

  36. Desi Kama Sutra Queen Female Pick Up Artist on July 18th, 2009 at 10:47 PM

    People, I guess you have never known Indians. If you did, you would not need to speculate theories around Shawn Valentino’s (aka Shyam Mukherjee’s) behaviour.

    He is a Bengali. ALL Indian men are mama’s boys, but Bengalis especially so. There are so many proverbs regarding the love of a Bengali mother.

    In our culture the sons never leave home. When they marry, their brides come and live in the homes of their husbands parents and spend the rest of their lives serving their in-laws. All the Indian day-time soap operas center around this relationship “saas-bahu” – the relationship between an Indian daughter in-law and her mother-in-law. Yeah. There is lots of drama.

    An Indian boys first, last and only love is his mother. It borders on the Freudian. Its definetly Oedipal.

    A married Indian man will forever be caught in the middle of his wife and mother. He will never side with the wife against the mother, for if he does, this will bring down the house. So he has to walk a careful line. Even when his wife is right and just, he will not “man up” and defend her to his mother. This is one of the reasons we Indian women no longer wish to marry Indian men. We are sick of this Indian family drama.

    Of course Shyam Mukherjee (Shawn Valentino) calls his mother every day. Heck, when he’s not travelling, he’s living with her.

    Don’t get me wrong. I’m all for tight families. However, as an Indian woman, if I were to allow my parents to arrange my marriage to an Indian dude, I would have to start loving his mother more than mine. Not gonna happen.

    I’d like to see the day an Indian man moves in with HIS in-laws!

  37. Your comments on this are very enlightening Desi Kama Sutra Queen. Thanks.

  38. Desi Kama Sutra Queen Female Pick Up Artist on July 18th, 2009 at 11:19 PM

    Yep, that’s the way our culture is, T. What cracks me up is “desi pick up artists”. Please boys. Go home to mama.

    By the way, “beta” means son (mama’s boy) in the Hindi language. LOL.

    (I thought this was Obsidian’s blog! What’s his blog url?)

  39. Shawn Valentino Mukherjee (LOL!) on July 21st, 2009 at 1:45 PM

    Check out his youtube channel;

    http://www.youtube.com/user/showstopperlifestyle

    The dude has interspersed photos of himself in all those videos.

    In the vampire one he even photoshopped his eyes to look like that dude in that vampire movie!

    And then the one “most beautiful MEN” (i guess that’s Mukherjee’s way of coming out of the closet – LOL), he’s got himself interspersed Between Brad Pitt and Matthew McConnoughay.

    Notice the theme in that video – suits to casual (jeans and wifebeaters) then to bare chest.

    LOL!

    Beta has a lot of time on his hands!

    (by the way, “beta” means “son”, mama’s boy in HINDI, how fitting!)

    And to think – one day he will have an arranged marriage to a Bengali girl in India who has no idea just how lame and desperate he is.

    Ciao!
    Desi Kama Sutra Queen Female PUA

  40. Ahmed had very little game. Was dating two not very attractive girls and had very little confidence. I think your subjective biases are seeing what they want to see. It’s good being good looking…

  41. while i do agree with your writings about pimps. i have read all of the iceberg slim series and i have also read the art of seduction i even read pimpin kens book. what mistake many analysts such as yourself fail to realise is this, fifty cent in his song with ugk said ” a pimp aint a pimp with no motherfuckin hoes” right there it hit me. maybe i have taken chinweizus book and esther vilars books a little to serious. in order for you to have total peace with women you need to have that cold detatchment of a pimp but you dont want to hate women. because you end up what you hate if there are no hoes there is no pimp. in my opinion i think the best thing to do is to depend on your self and take women with as much seriousness as a mattress made of eggs. in other words things such as monagmy faithfullness and other colonial forms of love should be totaly forgotten. in ancient times places such as the efik in cameroun the men built huts for their wives with 2 doors in the back ( one for her lover to exscape from), you can only be faithful to yourself because it is only you that is there 24/7. besides that another excellent post. let us not forget what i feel chinweizus book is telling us. Men should be totally free not slaves and like it or not a pimp as ruthless as he is is dependent on his hoes for his existence.

  42. pure gold

  43. Ahmed’s chicks are good looking. Not particularly appealing to me personality wise but appearance wise good.